Tier 4 set for most builds?
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Tonight as I was browsing the WoW.com forums, as is my habit while my wife watches Dancing with the Stars, I noticed that there was a lot of complaining about an alleged deletion of a blue post that shed some light on the tier 4 sets in the upcoming expansion. With Lost just about to start, my interest in getting to the bottom of the issue waned, and I went to the couch to watch TV with my lovely wife (a much more lovely wife than I deserve, btw).Thankfully, one of our beloved readers (thanks Kyle!) saw the post, copied it and shot it over to us via our tips form. Here is the text of the original, and recently undeleted, post from Kalgan:
There is a tier 4 set for most builds for each class.
The boss drops a "token" for a certain slot for a certain set of classes (it's not really called a "token", but I'm speaking of it mechanically here), which you then turn in for the type of set piece of your choice (ie: for a warrior, the tanking plate or the dps plate, or for a druid you choose between the healing, moonkin, or feral gear).
Um...wow. This has been hinted at before, but I think this is the first time someone has come out and said it in any official capacity. Assuming Kalgan is 100% accurate, this would be a phenomenal development for a lot of folks. Feral druids, shadow priests, dps warriors and every non-standard spec out there is going to be very, very happy. I know this is going to come off like I am some crazed fanboy, but it really looks like Blizzard listened carefully over the past couple years and is trying their best to make people happy with this expansion.
So, what do you guys think? Will their be dancing Moonkin in Ironforge tonight?
Filed under: Items, News items, Expansions
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Reas Oct 19th 2006 1:37AM
Great, this means I can finally get some +heal gear for my holy specced rogue !
Amaris Oct 19th 2006 2:52AM
What worries me is the fact that it applies only to raid sets... Let's be honest here, how many shadow priests are raiding? Why not the new dungeon sets, too?
uncaringbear Oct 19th 2006 3:31AM
I like and dislike the idea of spec-specific armour sets. The good thing is that builds like Shadow Priests can finally get some useful armour. The downside is that it further marginalizes these types of builds who normally aren't invited on raids. If a Shadow Priest in fully decked out in T4 gear isn't equivilent in abilities to other cloth classes, they're still going to be low on the raid ladder. Unless Blizzard makes it painfully obvious that there are clear benefits to bringing along these types of builds, they're still not going to be popular in raids, regardless of their gear. That'd be a shame, because Shadow Priests rock!
TwistedDSO Oct 19th 2006 4:48AM
I hope very much that BC changes a few things and allows players to play their characters the way they want and not have to change or adapt to another style in order to be more effective for guild type goals - i'd love for example, that not so much emphasis is needed in a particular talent tree for a warrior to be effective in raids i.e all emphasis on protection points - specialities should be a lot more subtle
in my view this is an outrageous flaw of the current game - talents should be able to be far more flexible to ensure a person plays the game the way they want but that they are also able to contribute far more to the guild or whatever
any raid set-up these days = 5 tanks 1 DPS warrior for example. great. not. just poorly designed fundamentals in my view.
I quite like the idea of tailoring armour to a particular spec/need but it doesn't solve the above problem. I'm a DPS warrior by the way
Amaris Oct 19th 2006 7:12AM
Aye. They do. The only thing keeping me holy/disc is the fact that I like to raid every now and then. Otherwise I'd go shadow.
Jason Oct 19th 2006 8:27AM
This is a wonderful idea. Essentially, it should lessen the pigeonholing you see based on current sets of gear. Priest sets are geared for healing, Warrior for tanking, Shaman for healing, and so on.
Ultimately, I look at pigeonholing as something not intended by blizzard. Yes, each class has a primary function, but it's been shown that other classes with similar abilities can fill that. Shaman can DPS, Druids can tank, and Priests can do that whole shadow thing. The issue is that when you look at the gear available for a class, you tend to identify classes with the intent of that gear. This is clearly one of the things Blizzard has gone to lengths to eliminate looking at this development, provided it holds.
On a side note, for those of you that are getting forced into a spec, do you really enjoy it? If you're fine with getting forced to respec, or you're doing so simply for loot, then perhaps it's time you looked at finding a guild that isn't going to force you into a particular spec.
Mordiceius Oct 19th 2006 8:48AM
I'm fine with getting forced into a spec. *shrug* Doesn't really bother me much, I can play any type of character, it just takes a little while to change to an adaptation of your style. I used to play a holy priest, depending on the situation, I'd rather be that than a shadow priest. *shrug*
Our guild never forced specs for 40 mans but if you didn't have a raid oriented spec, you'd be less likely to get into a raid if someone with a raid oriented spec was online. It was your choice to choose that spec and your choice if you want to raid all the time or not.
One thing our guild is doing is initiated a 'raider' status come xpac. These are the people that will volunteer to spec whatever way is needed because they want to benefit the guild as much as possible. Non 'raider' status people can still get into raids, but only if 'raider's arn't around and they will be last on the loot priority. The 'raider' status for are guild are those that want to be on the forefront of progress. Whether you raid or not is your choice and you have to accept the consequences that come with your choice. If you are going to raid frequently, would it not be in your best interest to go a spec that most benefits the raid?
Ken Oct 19th 2006 9:20AM
I agree with Mordiceius mostly. This doesn't really solve too much for the hardcore raiders as much as it does for casuals. Regardless of gear, based on class mechanics, there is always a superior PvE or PvP build.
For the hardcore raiders, you probably want to maximize your classes efficiency. Thus maximizing your raids efficiency. Your guild will definitely want you to be as best as your class and toon can be for raiding. So in the end you will be speccing for PvE and you will be grabbing the gear to compliment that. Do I have a problem with that? No. Might some other people not like that? Probably.
At the same time, it really is about choosing the gear that suits your playstyle the best. If you want that feral gear, get that feral gear. If you're having fun, by all means go for it.
The game is about having fun, not being forced into a certain playstyle.
Mordiceius Oct 19th 2006 9:38AM
I guess it is a good thing tier 4 gear comes out of Karazhan, which is a 10 man instance.
Karazhan, Medivh's Tower in Deadwind Pass, is a 10-man raid dungeon that is set on a timer (similar to 20/40 man raids). It is roughly 20+ times the size of Shadowfang Keep (so I thank God it is on a timer). Many of the boss fights are scripted (such as a playhouse area where ghostly actors come on stage, or a chess board with alliance/horde heroes on it). This is the site of tier 4. So good news is a lot more people will have access to this loot (sort of in the way many people have access to the dungeon set currently).
Ken Oct 19th 2006 9:51AM
You have no idea how excited I am for Karazhan =]
Mordiceius Oct 19th 2006 9:55AM
WTB Burning Crusade's release right now IMO.
Jason Oct 19th 2006 10:14AM
I see the maximizing efficiency thing all the time. To me, it's a bunch of bunk, especially when it comes to the hybrids. I've seen Feral Druids that are only a step behind Prot warriors for tanking, or Rogues for DPS in cat form. Properly geared elemental Shamans don't give up much to a Mage, either. I'm sure plenty of us have seen Earthmonk's elemental shaman in action. Ultimately, it comes down to knowing your class, and knowing your spec. This isn't anything new; it's been coming for a while. It's not going to slow down any, either. Tseric, Drysc, Eyonix and many others have stated time and again that Burning Crusade will be extremely forgiving on what are considered 'non standard' builds, even more so than now.
It's worth noting that I do run a cookie cutter spec, and was forced into it by an old guild to boot. There are times when I look at the enhance trees, and long to have Stormstrike back. I stick with my build because I do enjoy it, not because I was forced into it. It still doesn't change the fact that forcing specs isn't needed, and realistically, never was. That's why I always have, and always will give the advice to /gquit if your guild is going to force a spec on you.
As to raider/non-raider status.. I can't really agree with that much, either. My current guild is very casual, has no interest in forcing spec, or establishing a 'raider/non-raider' status. To me, if that's the route you want to go, then you might as well just label yourselves a hardcore guild, and /gkick the non-raiders. After all, you've already labeled them as non-contributers/minimal contributers. That speaks volumes about how much you value the time/effort they put into supporting the guild in my eyes.
Ken Oct 19th 2006 10:54AM
Jason,
When I speak, I don't mean to sound offensive or know-it-all-y. It's just the way it comes out. I am a level 60 druid in a guild who has BWL on farm status and currently trying to down Twin Emps as well as starting Nax.
You said maximizing efficiency is a bunch of bunk then you said that feral druids are a step behind a warrior and balance druids are a step behind mages. Druids are maximized in efficiency when healing. They have HoTs that, and instant heals (natures swiftness and swiftmend anyone?) that priests don't have. Sure feral druids can be awesome dpsers or tanks. But are they maximizing the effiency to the limits of their class? No. Can guild still get away with these off-specs? Heck yes! Is maximizing efficiency a bunch of bunk? No.
Situation: When you have enough healing druids in your party, a mage will be better than a balance druid. Another warrior will be better than a feral druid. Another rogue will be better than a feral dps druid. The only class that druids do not and should not replace are priests. Why? Because they aren't immitating them as much as complementing them. Take out the healing druids and put them in any other catagory and you'll have less overall healing power. Put in another priest to compensate you say? Well not only have we lost some instant heal and HoT ability, now we have a druid in another catagory who could easily be replaced by that catagorys specialist. Replace a mage with a balance druid and you'll see less dps. The 3% crit aura will NOT compensate for the amount of damage a well geared mage can do compared to a well geared balance druid.
As for your guild comment...why would you gkick people who are nonraiders? Some people within the guild aren't as hardcore as some raiders. Is that a problem? Is a hardcore raiding subset of a guild a problem? Why can't there be subsets in a guild again? Please explain.
Again, I don't have ANY problem with off-specs at all. In fact I admire watching feral druids tank raids such as MC or BWL. I just want to tell you that as of now in WoW, maximizing efficiency exists.
Druid dude Oct 19th 2006 12:04PM
Certain classes being stuffed in to convenient little boxes of specific talent specs is probably partially the result of the game's design (intentional or unintentional), but more so the result of a certain mindset of many guild leaders and raid leaders. You play a warrior? Great, you need to be Prot spec. Druid? Better be resto. And so on.
Some say that this mindset is caused by a lack of imagination, or by simple laziness. Or it may be a simple holdover from other MMO's such as EQ. I don't really know, but I suspect its a combination of those and other factors, including simple loot greed.
On the other hand, although in the minority, more imaginitive and creative raid leaders know the value of having at least some off-spec players in a raid. I don't think that having 4 out of 5 priests in a raid running around in Shadow Form is a good idea of course, but having a couple Shadow Priests can be tremendously advantageous if utilized correctly. For example, in BWL:
Razorgore: Phase 1, Damage. Phase 2, healing.
Vael: Shadow damage/group healing and some straight healing. Shadow Priests have this nifty ability to change in and out of Shadow Form! Imagine that!
Nef phase 1 is a great example where you really don't need the 15 healers you have been dragging through BWL, you probaly only need about 8, maybe 10 if the colors warrant it. Shammys, Druids and Priests can all do a fair amount of damage if allowed to do it, and this is a fight where they should be required to do some damage.
How many trash pulls will go so much faster with another 5 or 6 people doing DPS?
The guild I am in has 5 or 6 bosses down in Nax. Of our 6 regular Druids, 2 have quite a few points in Feral, and a bit of feral gear. Many trash pulls, and even an occasional boss fight, we have a bear runing around.
Moonkin? Put them in a Mage group and watch their damage go up a good chunk. Next fight, maybe the same druid is in caster form, healing.
Having led many raids, and made good use of off spec players, I can tell you from first hand experience that these people can take your raid to a whole other level of effectiveness!
I am really hoping that in BC, the usefulness of off spec players will become more obvious, and these players will get to do their thing a lot more than now!
Kaziel Oct 19th 2006 1:00PM
This is great news, IMO. Esp. since you can have backup gear that allows you to do something that's outside your "normal" spec. For example, in the expansion, I'm making a Draenei Shaman, with my spec being 42Ele/19Resto. I'll get the Shaman Elemental set, and have a few pieces of backup pure healing gear, for when I'm needed to heal.
I think the core problem is a lot of people think just b/c someone's specced a certain way, they can only do that. This is far from the truth, and having alternate gear allows you do stuff beyond your spec. Maybe you won't be as effect as someone who was specced a certain way, but that's a far cry from being unable to do something.
For example, I lead RoAQ raids for my Raid Alliance. We have a fair number of Feral Druids, and anyone who's done RoAQ knows that you need Druids for healing on Moam. Well, in that fight, I tell the Druids to be healers, and they swap out gear, and get to healing. They know they'll have to do it, and accept it, but we don't force them to change thier specs.
In the vein with my example above, is Shadow Priests. The mentality I see is that b/c a Shadow Priest has Shadowform, they must use it all the time. Not true. If a Shadow Priest is called upon to heal, they can just turn it off, put on some +healing gear, and they are good to go.
I see this as nothing but a good thing.
Swiftlydead Oct 19th 2006 1:08PM
feral druids are mediocre damage even with full epics.
kuri Oct 19th 2006 2:02PM
Even if this does mess around with peoples' ability to get into raids, isn't this more their fault than the game's? If this change is indeed accurate and all-spec encompassing like it sounds, then the player has to make up his/her mind what her end-game goals will be. Collect the tokens, sit on them for a week, do some research on how to make your class most effective for how you want to play, and take that route.
There's nothing stopping folks from getting more than one spec-centered armor set. Guilds will likely try to equip everyone first to get through the new content. Then, it's fair game to go grab whatever kind of gear you want.
I can't see how this would be a bad change. The only way it would collapse is if Blizzard screwed up itemization and stats.
Jason Oct 19th 2006 2:14PM
Ken,
My guild also has BWL on farm. We want nothing to do with Naxx, simply for the fact that we all look at it as a bone tossed to the hardcore, which we simply are not. We've been in AQ40 for around a month, and are at Huhu, having not downed her simply due to a lack of individuals with sufficient NR to soak. With that said, half our raiding druids are Feral or Moonkin. We have two of 6 Shamans restoration; two more are Enhancement, and the other is Elemental. Half of our priests are Shadow spec'd. Yet, in spite of all of this, we're still one of the most successful raiding guilds on our server.
So, yes, I do believe fully that maximizing is bunk. I feel that the guild I'm in more than proves it. The biggest difference between us and the top guilds on the server is the time spent in the instances; the two guilds ahead of us, and there's only two, have 3-4 months more time in, and in terms of progression, aren't very far ahead. Now, does this mean that the off specs don't fall back to healing when needed? Not at all. The same goes for the shadow priests. They heal as needed on the fights where extra heals are necessary and DPS the rest of the time. Never did I say it doesn't happen; I stated that it was bunk for happening.
When I was in the beta, everything that was put down around WoW was that there were certain classes which fall into defined roles more easily than others. This hasn't changed, yet it still doesn't mean that you need to force classes into spec's for progression's sake.
Yes, I'm sure that guilds like DnT, or Nilhium and their ilk do so. However, I also feel that they're as far ahead as they are due to the time put in, not because they force their members to spec or get out.
As to /gkick for nonraiders, I personaly wouldn't need one. Treating me as a second class citizen within my guild simply because I'd prefer a spec that I see as fun would be more than enough. Classifications such as 'raider' or 'non-raider' based on that is doing exactly that. To the guilds that want to do that, fine. It's certainly their choice to do so. I simply would want nothing to do with such a guild. To me, WoW is a hobby, meant for fun and relaxation. I have no problem putting in the time and effort to be near the top, but in no way will I compromise the fun of it simply to be there. It's why I've left guilds, transferred servers, and rolled alts. Fun is why I play, and to me, it's the only reason to play. It's clear that you see it different, and that's fine. However, it still doesn't, and won't, change the way I see things.
Jack Oct 19th 2006 2:42PM
I'm really glad to see this. I, as a resto druid, have been wanting to go moonkin for a long while, but have been held back by the fact that to do so I'd have to wear either extremely rare and not all that good leather pieces or take cloth pieces from mages and warlocks (and shadow priests.) Now that I can get a set for casting that is meant for druids with the same ease I can get one meant for healing, I believe I'll be able to go moonkin. (And note also that this isn't completely a selfish decision: moonkins do help the raid with their aura (which now gives 5% spellcrit) and debuffs (-2% hit for the boss and +3% hit for everyone attacking it) so while they may not be as good at dps as resto druids are good at healing, they do benefit the raid in ways that a "maximized class selection" could not.
Ken Oct 19th 2006 3:08PM
Jason,
Your guild proves that you can tackle raid instances at your level with offspecs. This does not prove that you are as efficient as you can possibly be. Comparing it to other guilds on your servers doesn't do justice on proving that. Most of what you speak of (like druid dude)is exercising hybrid class versatility.
However, I'll say that we both have not experienced enough of Nax to have any true say.
In order to maximize effectiveness during boss encounters, hybrids simply do not cut it. Against most trash mobs, sure switching to cat form and hitting it up in DPS speeds things up. But when you get to the next boss and you cannot keep up with the healing and your extra dps does not compensate for the lack of heals, then we have a problem.
I just asked my a fellow forumer who just recently downed Kel what he thought of offspecs in raids:
"It really all comes down to gear. For instance, a shadowpriest, in 2.5, 3 tier gear, can mind flay an entire fight with relative ease on their mana. A shadowpriest in tier 1 gear, couldn't mind flay for 10% of the fight. The gear really does scale up that badly. Gear comes before spec, but if gear is all top notch, it's generally good to have only one offspec thing in the entire raid, and that's one singular protection paladin for the 5th blessing, and that's all."
From this we can conclude that for alliance for high high end raid instances with uber leet gear, it is essential to have all classes PvE specced completely.
I respect your opinions and thoughts. /salute