Swords and daggers
Foxx asks over on Livejournal about the oldest question a budding Rogue can face: sword or dagger? As our great Rogue column Encrypted Text says, Rogue specs are designed more around weapons than roles-- the basest decision you make as a Rogue is to use daggers or swords.To my mind, there's no question: it's got to be daggers. I'm a longtime D&D player, and Rogues are supposed to Backstab, and Ambush, and sneak around and get in positions to do huge amounts of damage. A poisoned dagger is a Rogue's specialty, and that's what he's got to be wielding.
On the other hand, some Rogues can't handle the pressure of stealth-- they equip swords and go in swinging for the fences. Don't get me wrong-- there is a lot of good in a sword spec. Combat is basically the best solo spec you'll find, and Blade Flurry is pretty much a Rogue's only weapon against multiple opponents.
But even though it actually makes soloing harder, to me, a Rogue's just not a Rogue without a dagger in the main hand. You sword Rogues can disagree (and I know you will-- a sword-loving guildie of mine has argued this with me many times), but if you're not interested in sneaking around behind your target, and burying that toxic dagger in his back, maybe you should have rolled a fury Warrior.
Filed under: Rogue, Analysis / Opinion, Tips, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
yoda22281 Aug 27th 2007 3:16PM
Or you could be different and go fists or maces. :)
Omegi Aug 27th 2007 3:19PM
From my understanding swords is the best PvE raiding build. You get the most damage out of your white attacks which typically is about half of all damage you do. Fury warriors are nice too but they sure do have a huge repair bill.
rick gregory Aug 27th 2007 3:31PM
There's no best build, there are best builds for various things.
Combat Swords will level faster than other things. it's nothing to do with 'the pressure of stealth' but rather that you don't spend time trying to get behind the mob so you can backstab them. Swords allow Sinister Strike to work well and it's easy to find good swords as you level, not so much with fist weaps or maces.
Once at past 60 or at 70 it's far more about what you want to do. Combat Daggers needs a buff because it doesn't really out damage swords by much if any in raids and you have to deal with the positional issues. Easy pre-TBC, but a lot of the bosses in TBC aren't tank and spank... they move.
PvPing opens up a lot of styles from combat in arena to various Sub or assassination builds. And Mutilate is a blast. Not the damage that a fu ll on combat build brings, but tons of fun.
Which is the point of course... unless you want to min/max for a given role, play what's fun.
YPEELS40 Aug 27th 2007 3:32PM
After being a dagger rogue for more than 20 months, sword/fist is now superior in pve. Some mobs twitch and pivot, some mobs have horrible hit boxes, some mobs you cant even tell what is the back and what is the front. Two rogues same gear, combat dagger and combat sword, the combat sword will pull ahead. Also try to have the same type of weapon in both hands. Sword spec can proc from offhand and dagger spec does help offhand crits.
aggregate Aug 27th 2007 3:36PM
I am guessing the author doesn't raid on their rogue.
agentaero Aug 27th 2007 3:41PM
great, not much help here, I just started a rogue, 16 ,and I was wondering about which way to take him, and the majority of you say, whichever way you like... makes sense, but not the answer I was hopeing for
Phu Aug 27th 2007 3:45PM
I am currently dagger spec as well but I'm looking to go with something less limited by positioning when I can pick up some new weapons. As Rick Gregory noted TBC encounters are highly mobile and it's hard to stay behind your opponents. Add to that the annoying that fact that mobs are really hard to get to stay still makes things even more difficult (I also have a 70 warrior and when trying to position things correctly they have the annoying tendancy to walk through me, then turn around and walk back). Since daggers don't out-damage other combat builds by any significant degree, why bother with the hassle?
Milktub Aug 27th 2007 3:45PM
@5 -- your comments are why I've pretty much stopped playing my rogue. Sure, combat swords does the damage regardless of what the situation is. Immune to poisons, resistant to stuns ... that sword is still gonna whack for a lot of damage.
But then there's folks like me and the author who know that swords are for warriors and daggers are for rogues. Rogues sneak about with little sharp objects and jam them into the tiny place on the back of our enemies' necks.
Damage may be important to you, but what's important to me is feeling like I'm playing my character within the lore and legend about my class. I stab with my rogue, I tank with my warrior, and I heal with my priest.
rick gregory Aug 27th 2007 3:52PM
@8 - Oh, i'm so GLAD I have you to pronounce from on high what the One True Way is... You just try that in a raid.. sneak up to the boss and backstab him... go ahead.
@6 - the reason there's no One True Way is that it depends what you do. If you want to level fast and you solo, go Combat Swords. If you like sneaking, aren't as worried about leveling speed or if you duo with someone who can hold aggro, daggers is fun.
Try different things... respeccing is cheap the first few times.
PDKM Aug 27th 2007 3:58PM
Does anyone have any advice on how to go combat swords, but still be able to backstab/ambush should a suitable situation present itself? Are there any macros out there?
/equip dagger main hand
/backstab
or whatever... sorry I suck at macros....
Darkwarder Aug 27th 2007 4:05PM
@8 -- so your complaint is just a RP thing, not anything substantive.
"But then there's folks like me and the author who know that swords are for warriors and daggers are for rogues."
It's ok, my NE warrior will only carry a bow (no guns, throwing thingies, or crossbows), but if rogues were only meant to carry daggers, there wouldn't be sword and mace rogues. And, prot warriors often carry maces. As is often the case, the opinion articles on wowinsider making sweeping statements to elicit response with very little insight or detail. It's almost like talk radio, you can say the most outrageous things and then, when you're called on it, fall back on saying it's only entertainment or an opinion.
Attapooch Aug 27th 2007 4:06PM
Said 8: But then there's folks like me and the author who know that swords are for warriors and daggers are for rogues. Rogues sneak about with little sharp objects and jam them into the tiny place on the back of our enemies' necks.
The Gray Mouser was a rogue and both he and Fafhrd (also a rogue) used swords - as well as dirks and axes.
Next thing you're going to tell me is that wizards don't use swords. *cough*Glamdring*cough*
hashpipe Aug 27th 2007 4:09PM
I love sword spec. Been sword spec since I was able to use talent points. I cant stand the fact I have to be in certain areas to use my moves and skills so hell I'll go combat and hit everything.
It's just till now I realized after 2 years that I really do need a slow main hand and a fast off hand [n00bcake].
And to answer PDKM question on macro I use a macro for boss fights and when I pull too many mobs:
/cast Adrenaline Rush [rank#]
/cast Evasion
Rifkin Aug 27th 2007 4:15PM
The problem with your article is its flat out wrong. You can play the *exact* same way as Combat Swords spec and just flat out do more dps. Combat Swords also stealths and attacks from behind, we just do more damage and don't *have* to stealth and we don't *have* to attack from behind...it's just better if we do.
Hell take the exact same gear you have today and re-spec as Combat Daggers and fight as if you were swords and your dps will go up!
Attapooch Aug 27th 2007 4:16PM
@6 To answer your question, I would suggest going swords over daggers. You'll level much, much faster that way and you won't have the hassle of worrying about your positioning.
robotrock Aug 27th 2007 4:16PM
Assassination spec PVPer here...daggers are my friends.
I want fast fast fast swings to apply that poison as quickly as possible. I can worry about position while my opponent is stunlocked.
skwol Aug 27th 2007 4:16PM
combat swords > daggers for PvE for one sole reason. windfury totem.
Avonturier Aug 27th 2007 4:17PM
@12 great to see those two mentioned here, I love the books and named one of my characters after Mouser! I also use only daggers on my rogue and will use anything that will get here more roguelike (+stealth items, -falldamage cloak, eyepatch :)
clozer Aug 27th 2007 4:29PM
100% agree with this article.
Secondly. That is such a false assumption that swords are the best pve raid spec. They are great no doubt. But if a dagger rogue is talented, always gets behind for the backstabs, know's how to keep the SnD up with sneaking in eviscerates etc.. You can out dps a sword rogue. It just takes a lot more effort. Any that say otherwise just don't know how to get the most out of daggers, and see the easier to attain sustained dps of sword and claim it's better. Which it may be if you hate to fight for positioning and are less into "twitch" gaming.
But please please please stop saying sword rogues are the highest dps raid spec. Not a true statement. Elitest jerks forums already covered this like 10 times since the expansion.
Anyway this post isn't about that kind of discussion... it's about the fact that if you don't play with daggers you're really nothing more than a fury warrior. It's just a purist point of view, which I admittedly am biased toward. I confess.
Mike Schramm Aug 27th 2007 4:31PM
Actually, as long as we're geeking out about rogues, I was going to mention that Artemis Entreri is my idea of the prime rogue (if you know who that is without having to look it up, kudos to you). He wields a dagger in the main hand and a sword in the left.