The ultimate loot distribution system?
I've been toying with the idea of putting together my own Kara raid, so when I saw the World of Matticus suggestions for loot distribution I read through them with eager interest. If you are unfamiliar with the concept of DKP, or Dragon Kill Points (a phrase harkening back to the days of Everquest), essentially every person attending the raid gets points based upon what bosses they participate in downing. Each DKP system is very different, from the basic to the complicated, and some are so complex that they require mods to organize.
In the raid I was most recently in, they used zero-sum DKP, supposedly designed to keep people from hording the points, but it ended up being much like what they seemed to be trying to avoid, at least from what I saw. Matticus suggests that we modify the DKP systems, blend them together, and add a very important element: attendance. I also like his ideas on incentives for the spending of DKP, with discounts given for item pieces that are below the guild's current raid progression. It's an idea that allows the newer members of the raid to build their sets without having to wait the long period it normally requires to build up sufficient points.
I'm still not sure how I would feel about Matticus' idea of a guild hierarchy, where certain classes get items first, but I suppose that is mostly because I play a mage. I do, however, see the value in building up the gear of those that are most central to the raid's success, so I guess I see his point after all. Personally, I think his ideas on DKP are sound enough to try. Whether or not they can be implemented by a brand new raid leader remains to be seen.
In the raid I was most recently in, they used zero-sum DKP, supposedly designed to keep people from hording the points, but it ended up being much like what they seemed to be trying to avoid, at least from what I saw. Matticus suggests that we modify the DKP systems, blend them together, and add a very important element: attendance. I also like his ideas on incentives for the spending of DKP, with discounts given for item pieces that are below the guild's current raid progression. It's an idea that allows the newer members of the raid to build their sets without having to wait the long period it normally requires to build up sufficient points.
I'm still not sure how I would feel about Matticus' idea of a guild hierarchy, where certain classes get items first, but I suppose that is mostly because I play a mage. I do, however, see the value in building up the gear of those that are most central to the raid's success, so I guess I see his point after all. Personally, I think his ideas on DKP are sound enough to try. Whether or not they can be implemented by a brand new raid leader remains to be seen.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Pudie Oct 3rd 2007 2:08PM
My guild just does a /roll in Kara
Sylythn Oct 3rd 2007 2:09PM
I'm going to stick with, "if you want it, roll for it" and "final say goes with the raid leader", for as long as I possibly can before even thinking about DKP. It works for me now, and I'm hoping it'll work for me always. DKP just makes it too much about the pixels.
Steve_S Oct 3rd 2007 2:13PM
My guild does a zero sum DKP combined with attendance for 25 man runs. For 10 man its master loot and just /roll if you need it. We also allow prot spec warriors first dibs as we are low on them ATM and need them properly geared for raid progression.
Mirina Oct 3rd 2007 2:23PM
My guild using Suicide Kings DKP. We add new attendees to the raids at the bottom of the list, then you work your way up. Once you win a loot, you are "suicided" back to the bottom of the list. We also run separate lists in regards to patterns and whatnot for the enchanting recipes/leatherworking/tailoring stuff. The suicide pattern is nice, because you don't get dinged for attendance--you just hold your place on the list (and move up as other guildmates are "suicided.").
If attendance was figured in on DKP, I'd probably be hosed. My guild does casual raiding, but sometimes I just can't make some of our 25-mans, or, we have a scenario like we did last night: too many DPS showed up for SSC and Gruuls. A number of us left the raid party (for various reasons) to get the number back down to 25. I wouldn't want to get dinged because I gave up my spot to another guildmate.
We only use DKP in the 25-mans right now. The raid leader on our Kara runs controls who gets the loot. Basically a "if you want it, /w me." Then he decides which classes are most deserving (ex: that's more druid than rogue, so he tells the rogue his logic behind not letting him have the loot), and tells the agreed upon classes/guildmates to roll. Highest roll wins.
Seems to be working well for us :)
Klatz Oct 3rd 2007 2:24PM
His ideas on attendance ratio modifying DKP reward attendance would cause more drama and grief since DKP already provides an incentive to attend. And it would punish, unfairly those who were bumped or can not attend regularly. People who attend get more DKP than those who don't. Someone who's annoyed that a more casual person is getting an item is just being selfish.
PeeWee Oct 3rd 2007 2:24PM
Ultimate loot system: "Common Sense".
Unfortunately, with all asshats and lootwhores around, that's more or less practiacally impossible.
Mort Oct 3rd 2007 2:25PM
Was raid for a long time until I took a step back and a deep breath and enjoyed a bit of life.
We tried a tier system, it was an catastrophic failure. Chances are someone in the top tier will always need what drops. Even more so now since a lot of the boss drops are for classes x, y, z, and sometimes q. When that top tier doesn't need it the second tier will snap it up. Leaving those at the bottom (i.e. those people you need to fill up the raid because you are 2 or 3 spots shy) hoping for scraps, never getting them, and leaving for a better home where they might get close enough to breath on an item instead of hope from afar (we had plenty of people leave due to this).
Zero dkp systems seems to have worked well for us, but we incorporated a devaluing element into it. When a dungeon is on farm status, the drops there are worth less. Those who paid more for it were usually the hardcore raiders who had more dkp to begin with (price of early adoption).
Upgrades always get first priority, then side-grades. Downgrades are not an issue. Just DE them for the mats.
It all rests on your group of raiders. If you have someone who has purple fever and needs that item simply because they want to have them, you need to address that problem. If you have people who will pass to others who need it more and pick up loot when it is appropriate and needed without hording dkp for that "one super extra ordinary drop that might some day happen", then that helps as well.
We have kicked around a loot council a few times, but we do not want to have cries of favoritism.
In the end it comes down to your raiders.
Chris Oct 3rd 2007 2:28PM
My guild's loot distro system for 10-man (and also for 25-man which we do in concert with another smaller guild) sums up as follows:
DON'T BE A DICK.
Roll if it's an upgrade for you, pass if someone else can use it better. It works for us. DKP and other systems seem like a solution in search of a problem, if your guild is mature enough to behave like adults instead of going OMG PHAT EPIXXX LAWL.
Procyon Oct 3rd 2007 2:31PM
Suicide Kings is the way to go. Our casual raiding guild has been using it for quite a while now and have had zero problems. The only issue that can arise is when someone truly could use the item, but does not want to take it for fear of getting suicided to the bottom of the list when they may lose their spot for something they really want.
token Oct 3rd 2007 2:31PM
For Karazhan, we have a pretty good system. We use a 1 need, 1 greed, 1 set piece a night rule. One person could theoretically wind up with 3 epics in a night this way, but it hasn't happened in 4 months yet. :)
Other then set pieces, items are looked at via class and spec so we use wow-loot.com as an impartial opinion. So for example, we down Moroes and he drops his Lucky Pocket Watch (not so lucky, huh?). We pull up wow-loot and see that it says first priority goes to feral druids, then prot warriors and prot pallys, and so on and so forth. The raid leader calles for needs on the pocket watch, no druids? Needs from prot warrios and prot pallys? No takers? Greed rolls on it? If no takers, it's sharded and sent to the guild bank.
This makes it incredibly fair and there is no loot drama. Since Your class make up is a lot more limited in Karazhan then in 25-man content, you typically won't have to roll higher then 1-2 other people so DKP seems like a wasted effort.
We do use traditional DKP for 25-man content.
Kahja Oct 3rd 2007 2:31PM
Raiding leads to drama most of the time... well not raiding itself but loot distribution...
When I ran raids I decided who got what and when. I did prioritize our MT and MH when it came to gear for tanking/healing BUT if it helped OT or OH a lot more they would get it. If it helped no one then some random guy would get it or it would be dusted.
As far as all the DPS classes go I would know prior to going into a raid what everyone wore during the raid and I would give it to the person that would benefit the most because of the new item. I didn't have stupid strong mages that got 5 pieces of loot and a lock that got 1 if he was lucky it was evenly distributed. The only way someone got more than 1 piece of loot was if the other people either didn't want it whatsoever or if everyone had it.
I ran that bitch and we went rather far for the available instance we could run (basically was just MC/Ony/BWL on clear), due to them being the only raids we had at the time.
Then I got sick of raiding and passed the torch. The guild still exists and is going to the Eye from what I hear. Loot is still done in the same fashion. If you didn't like the loot system you left or got kicked. Loot was distributed for the betterment of the raiding core (70 man guild 40 core raiders).
It was a dictatorship and it worked for the people in the guild. Also... I frequently ended up screwing myself out of loot just so you all know that I wasn't trying to gear myself over all else.
Marinn Oct 3rd 2007 2:39PM
My guild uses EPGP for 25 man raids. It is easily the most fair and configurable DKP-like system I have ever used (and I've seen Dice Weighting, Zero-Sum DKP, DKP with decay and DKP with rolling price drops, as well as Suicide Kings).
http://code.google.com/p/epgp/
Omegi Oct 3rd 2007 2:42PM
Effort Points/Gear Points (EPGP) for the 25 mans.
http://jett.guildlaunch.com//custom.php?gid=1640&page_id=4100
For 10 mans we use 1 epic and 1 token per clearing. All are done with a /roll
Darkwarder Oct 3rd 2007 2:44PM
I find it incredible to believe that a raid could have a policy where certain classes get gear over other classes. There's no way that the raid would last very long. Everyone pays their monthly fee and everyone has repair and consumables costs. Every member of a raid is equal.
I have passed before on tier items to the main tank, while we were gearing up in the raid, but that was my choice. Being considerate in a raid strengthens the raid. People with an epic item will often pass on an item, even though it's an upgrade, to someone with only a blue item, but again, that's their choice.
In the end, no one is more entitled. If someone is not rewarded for their efforts or appreciated, they'll simply move on.
drakegw Oct 3rd 2007 2:44PM
We use EPGP as well, it's a very nice system that naturally prevents point hoarding.
Cascade Oct 3rd 2007 2:50PM
The attendance modifier afterwards is pretty lame. It penalizes the successful raiders. For example, those that get down new content or get more done in a short time span would get a reduction compared to those that don't simply based upon overall attendance.
Dave Oct 3rd 2007 2:54PM
All "systems" are inherently abuseable and are more or less designed to remove any randomness or fairness out of acquiring loot. They claim to be for this and that, but in reality they just skew things farther to one direction than pure random rolls ever would.
Want more attendance? Random rolls. Showing up to more raids ensures a higher chance of getting specific loot by being there for more rolls. Want people to stop showing up? Let 'em hoard their DKP, blow their wad on the item they really want and find out they're "just too busy man" for some of the less essential raids. It's roughly analogous to just plan random rolling for the most part. If someone's going to bail on the guild, DKP is only going to marginally keep them around any longer than they would have if they get outbid on an item.
Random rolls can't be gamed. At the end of the day, the person who's been to the most raids has the best chance of winning, mathematically at least.
Then again, most people in WoW are scared to death of math, statistics and probability and are convinced that Blizzard is making sure they don't get a piece of loot and that this and that are fixed just because of short-term small sample size results. So, people need a crutch of DKP to make them feel better when things finally go their way, and to convince them that things are going to get better when things don't go their way.
In reality, /roll will get you very good results, on par with any system in the world.
gundamxzero Oct 3rd 2007 3:00PM
We just have our raid lead have everyone that wants to roll send them a tell and based on how recently you got loot and how much of an upgrade it is you may get it. I love being the other leather wearing tank in kara :)
Angelus Oct 3rd 2007 3:17PM
Motto: Advance the Raid First.
We use the 'common sense' + 'dont be a greedy ass' in our guild. Our tanks get all tanking gear unless its a downgrade then other people can roll on it or it gets DEd. Our raiders are pretty sharp and really want to help the raid.
We occasionally have that guy who seamed realy cool and suddenly has an issue with us giving a tank who has a blue shield a nice epic shield instead of giving it to him when its a very small upgrade for HIS epic shield. He just likes how it looks. Thats a good weeding out system for your guild too: If he's a loot whore, he's likely gonna farm your guild then /gquit. Do it for him /gkick his ass.
Kim Oct 3rd 2007 3:21PM
Our old raiding system was done by class leader.
Class leader would call out if the loot was good for the class in attendance, and the people under would get the piece round robin style.
I came in MC last and ended up getting three pieces of Cenarion just because the other druids in raid already had those pieces. By all means, the person with most senority who didn't have their piece got first dibs unless they waived it in favor of something else. Aurastone hammer anyone?
All items that were non specific like the Eye of Moam would be open for /random. It kept the guild happy for a long time. The only thing that stopped it all was a merger with another guild when Summer vacation came around and attendence dropped.
Kids. Sheesh.