Reviving the pugs
Now here is where I have to agree and then disagree. On one hand, it is true, raiders tend to not run the 5-mans, at least in my experience, because they already have the gear. But there are plenty of excellent players out there that don't raid. While raiders are working to be the best at their particular class for a specific purpose, it's awfully elitist to assume that just because I raid I am therefore a better player. A commenter on the article mentioned a very valid fact: being a good player doesn't only mean that you know your class inside and out. There are also the other pieces to consider, generosity with loot, patience with new players, the ability to communicate with the group. And also, who's to say that there aren't raiders out there that enjoy running instances with people they don't know simply for the joy of helping others?
Relmstien goes on to say that the changes to the reputation requirements for heroic keys and the addition of daily heroic quests will go a decent way toward luring the better players back into the 5-man instances. I'm not so sure about that, seeing as how heroic badges will be dropping in the 10-man instances as well. I don't know that there will be enough incentive to bring players back to the PUG.
Filed under: Instances
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Arnold Oct 23rd 2007 8:16PM
Of the 10-15 last PUGs I have done, I have only had one bad one.
I don't know about you, but that is a pretty good ratio IMHO. From the PUGs I have done I find friends and later we do runs with them again...
Anyways, just my two cents worth, that I have had great experiences in PUGs.
bnorman Oct 23rd 2007 8:19PM
I just got out of a Hellfire Ramparts PuG, the Hunter stood in the fire like a jackass while the pally tank kept on tanking Vazruden while Nazzan went around one shotting everyone else.
PUGs suck.
Paul Oct 23rd 2007 8:23PM
I have been seeing lees and less bad pugs recently. I think as you get up in levels, a lot (not all) of the bad behaviors that make running pugs awful get filtered out by criticism form your peers over the course of running dozens upon dozens of instances.
I saw ninjaing in deadmines, and none beyond that because the ninjas quickly found what happened to them, and realized that they would end up getting more loot over time if they just played nice.
Paul Oct 23rd 2007 8:29PM
oh, and the idea that all the good players have found friends to run instances with and so don't pug anymore is pretty faulty. I don't play as much as a lot of people
(is it just me that, as much as i love the game, i love talking about it and the theory crafting side of it even more? i'll waste a good part of a slow day at work reading and discussing things on wowinsider, and then i'll get home and not really feel like playing for more than a few minutes once i've tested out my new ideas on spell rotations, etc),
(sorry big digression)so i don't have many people that stay the same level as me to run instances with. So it's always a new pool of faster-advancing players to meet and pug with. This has nothing to do with how good i am in a group setting.
Erika Oct 23rd 2007 8:42PM
Well i think the pugs get better with level. Just check some barrens pug and see what happens.
Dave Oct 23rd 2007 9:16PM
I think this concept is a self-defeating one that people just use to justify everything they think is wrong with the game. There are bad guild groups. Not everyone in your guild, even if it's a raiding guild, is necessarily that great. You just tend to gloss over the fact that your guildie hunter launched his pet into a pack of mobs too soon, or broke 10 sheeps or whatever any normal person does as a mistake. But when it happens in a group that's not entirely made up of your "friends" you blame the concept rather than point out that it's usually a single bad apple that has the issues, and that bad apple probably is in a guild and also has friends. It can't be both can it?
Everyone wants to see it their own precious way rather than how it actually is. I mean maybe you guys really do think everyone in your guild is awesome (they're not) and that your friends list is full of awesome players just because they talk to you in the game and make you laugh occasionally. Bad players come from everywhere, good players come from everywhere. The fact that too many people are too scared to branch out from their own sheltered guild existence is more of the reason why things suck.
Dewy Oct 23rd 2007 9:28PM
I am a new convert from UO, playing only a few months now and only have a level 40 to show for it.
I am one of those people that only have like 2 people on my friends list, one was a Priest that was pugging Deadmines and I guess I did okay cause I got invited back and now we are regulars.
I can agree that in Deadmines and VC, there were some people that Needed on everything, and when finally called on it claimed they didn't know, but I just recently did Uldaman's a few tiems with different people and it was a positive experience.
From the forums and articles here, I am kind of dreading the higher instances in that, (although I spend a considerable amount of time trying to learn my class - less the math heh), I think I will screw it up at least once, probably twice, but am not looking forward to getting cursed out about it.
slunk Oct 23rd 2007 9:28PM
There have been times when I have grouped with the same five people, every night, for three weeks straight. When you do this, the group really syncs up.
If you go from this, to a PUG, of course it will seem horrible.
It's happened to me, and I'm sure it's happened to alot of people.
I think alot of the bad perception, is people aren't playing with those their friends, who they happen to know their play style.
I'm always going to blame someone else for doing something I'm not accustomed to, instead of admitting I'm making assumptions.
babamucha Oct 23rd 2007 10:08PM
My main is a Holy Priest.
I love PUG no matter is good or bad group.
Just love it. Its the chemistry during each fight, I am getting smarter, and knowing more on other classes, and whose slacking, whose PWN. Whose doing the right thing, and whose not.
With MOD even more you could study from PUG
If bad one, Talk with them, Still not ok? Just port out man. And speak up with "I cant believe you nOoB for 70 lvls" lol and port out man.
Why hate PUG? Un- expected giving me tons of fun. Hey thats the recent we play online games man, touch with others. You can always learn more from PUG than raid, coz officers only shout at people during raid. Raid memebers are not patient to tell, etc etc.
jaxson_bateman Oct 23rd 2007 10:22PM
As a raiding, full epic healer that often pugs (I prefer to do normal runs for rep as they're easy as) I find that as long as the tank is half decent, most runs go on without a hitch. I think that's the basic math for PuGs: decent tank + decent healer = good run.
Of course, dps definately plays their part. Sure, if the tank and healer are good you won't have many, if any deaths, and things go relatively smoothly, but if the dps isn't pulling their weight then the runs can go so slow it's irritating.
To give an example of this, I just finished up a BM pug with a decent pally tank, two locks and an enh shammy. The tank was doing fine, but the dps was very slow, meaning more adds spawned, which made healing harder than it should've been for that level of instance.
In short, I'm not a huge fan of PuGs, but they're not as bad as people often make them out to be. Just have Armory ready to look at your tank and healer so that you can determine how easy or difficult the run should be. =)
david parish (Stiffty) Oct 23rd 2007 10:23PM
For me the problems i experience in PUGS are the following:
1. People going afk or brb or dc'ing or any other acronym meaning 'im not here' frequently, meaning a slow and inefficient run.
2. People not listening to what the marks you set mean and therefore not acting on them.
3. People who are all too quick to brand everyone else as noobs.
4. How long it takes to find a pug (most likely the result of the above three).
Of course i'm not saying i've never had a good pug, i've had plenty of good ones and it's great when you do get a good one. The problem for me is that a lot of time is wasted on finding the group, then on unnecessary wipes, and people brbing or dc-ing etc.
The three (well technically 6) things that could save the PUG:
1. Organisation and communication
2. Tolerance and understanding
3. Common Sense and concentration.
Adam Oct 23rd 2007 10:23PM
I have been with Pugs that have tired my patience; I have also had good times healing from the LFG channel.
Last Pug I joined was so easy and relaxed, I agreed to run the same instance again straight after. Everyone knew what to do, none were left feeling any doubts and we all just got on with our own roles whilst having a laugh and any random thing. The way the game is intended, I think (may be wrong).
Bliss for a night out of 25mans.
The bad ones are easier to remember due to the massive frustration that they bring with them (including a big dose of despair).
One thing I try to keep in mind is that Pug’s will rarely have the “well oiled” dynamic of your raiding team, and so I approach them from a “fun times” Point of view.
Andelorn Oct 23rd 2007 10:32PM
@6 Haha you reminded me of one of the funniest and saddest experiences I've had in a long time, which happened just recently.
I was doing an SFK run with my level 20 rogue in a group where 3 out of the 5 were clearly on their very first characters, and their first time in SFK, but otherwise they were a bunch of decent guys; noone acting stupid or anything, just inexperienced. I was experienced, and so was the priest of the group.
However, where I tried to guide the newbies and help them out with things, this priest was insane. He was bossing the newbies around, cursing at them before finally at the boss just before the last one (don't remember the name) our group made up entirely of level 20/21s wiped -once-. How does the priest take it? He explodes at the newbies, screaming at them for not being organised and for being a bunch of stupid newbs who can't do anything right, telling them they were the worst players he's ever grouped with and such before leaving group and hearthing.
In SFK.
At level 20.
fenla Oct 23rd 2007 10:40PM
As far as healing a bad pug, it's great practise :)
Sl0th Oct 23rd 2007 10:55PM
Its funny. PuGs have been the best and worst thing I've experienced in WoW. Before I found a good guild, PuGing was my only option. And I met a lot of good friends through PuGs. I've also met some of the worst players I've ever seen. I often try to be patient, and am willing to wipe over and over is I see a glimmer of light at the end of the long tunnel. And doing so many
PuGs forced me to be a better player. I've learned as much from watching bad players as I have from watching good ones.
In a strange way, I miss running so many PuGs. I'd meet new people and often found myself challenged. But now that I'm in a guild full of pretty good players, I haven't done more than glance at the LFG tool in quite a while.
That being said, I relish the prospect of being forced into them if I want to complete a daily quest, especially a heroic one. Its one thing to see people fall flat on their face when they are at least geared for the run they're doing. Its a whole other when they are under geared because the Revered limit on heroics has disapeared and that same joke of a tank who doesn't know how to hold agro is facing situations as difficult as some endgame bosses. I foresee a lot of these PuGs dissolving in frustration far quicker than ever before.
BigBear Oct 23rd 2007 11:07PM
I would reiterate others comments that pugging will make you a better player. Sometimes you pick up other ways to do things that you can incorporate back into your guild or playstyle and other times, just being able to handle a bad players mistakes , will give you skills that transfer into handling new raid encounters. The wise man learns more from the fool, than the fool from the wise.
That being said, I do think that lowering the entry level of heroics to honoured will actually make pugs worse. If you did a good spread of quests and some instances as you leveled, you should probably be honoured with most factions at 70, however you will still be terribly under geared for heroics, even if you are a good player. The time finishing off quest chains, and gaining the rep for revered also gave you the time to gear up for heroics, which to me is vital. I would have suggested rewarding more rep in instances rather than lowering the rep level requirements requirements.
Andelorn Oct 23rd 2007 11:19PM
By the way, I'm against the opinion that lowering the Heroic rep will make things worse, but then I'm usually pretty optimistic. There are people capable of doing heroics who need to grind non-heroics over and over to get Revered that this will make happy. And if a PUG that can't handle it tries, well then they wipe and go do something else, simple. If anything it will show those people that they have some work to do to be good enough.
That said, I'm curious to know what people think about exactly -how- this will make PUGs worse. I've just seen people say that it will but not actually provide any reason for it. Is it just that people are afraid that they will get someone in their group who is undergeared and experienced? If they do, why can't they just tell the person that they wouldn't be able to handle it and then find someone else?
Andelorn Oct 23rd 2007 11:24PM
By the way, to add to what I said in my first paragraph, I have my Sha'tar, Cenarion and Keepers of Time heroic keys, have been able to handle healing heroics pretty well and have been with my guild through Kara plenty. But I can't do heroic Ramparts or Mana Tombs or any other Hellfire or Auch heorics until I've grinded normal Shadow Labs and Shattered Halls over and over and over. This is not fun for me.
Charles Oct 23rd 2007 11:40PM
The pally in that picture is wearing the Cloth sholders from Mech. Ha ha PUGz.
BigBear Oct 23rd 2007 11:53PM
@Anderlon: to answer your question. First - remember we are talking about random pug runs, so not guildies. Lowering the Rep requirement to my mind is a bad idea because it changes the natural learning progression of the game. In general, every quest and instance slowly gets harder and prepares you for the next. The same goes for level 70 non-heroics to heroics. Doing the normal version prepares you for the heroic through a variety of means which include learning the instance layout, mob abilities, group tactics across varied playstyles and groups makeup and naturally in obtaining gear.
As I mentioned in my above post, it is not uncommon for a player to arrive at 70 honoured with every faction, and thus they can skip the normal version of instances and the normal learning progression. As an experienced player, I have no problem helping people through heroics as long as they have done the groundwork first.
With the changes, its now impossible to tell if a PuG has some base experience or not (where with the revered requirements, this was pretty much guaranteed). It takes long enough to get a PuG together that having to interview each person on their experience or gear or whatever is just time consuming.
That being said, I agree completely that the rep grind is tedious and boring. I have two chars with all heroic keys and quite frankly I don't ever want to see these instances again ;)
However, I think a better solution would be to significantly upgrade the rep gains from the normal instances (especially for the quests that are associated with those instances). If balanced correctly it would lower the grind time to hopefully almost nil, but still provide that valuable learning experience and quest line completition that is important for the game.