Ask WoW Insider: Proving your worth
by Mike Schramm 
Oct 26th 2007 at 8:03PM
This week on Ask WoW Insider, we've got an interesting question about how to get along with PuGs in game. As you might already know, in patch 2.3, players will be able to see everyone else's spec simply via the Inspect screen without leaving the game. This information has already been available on the Armory, but in 2.3, it'll be just one click away. And that's got reader Mylittleponykiller worried:Hello. I play an MS warrior, currently specced for PvP, but I also tank for pugs in non-Heroics and offtank in Karazhan when needed. I do a fine job, and often on the journey from 1-69.99 I was mistaken for Prot when I tanked instances (as Fury). However, in 2.3 I know that I will get kicked out of/not invited to PuGs if I am not Prot. I have spent hundreds of gold and many hours getting geared to tank and to DPS, and now it seems half of that might just go to waste. What can I do to prevent this from happening or at least prove myself as a tank to PuGs (even though I have over and over again)?
Interesting question. First of all, readers, would you kick a warrior out of the group if he was there to tank and not specced Prot? When you have the ability to see someone's spec at a click, will you use that information to determine what other players can and can't do in your groups?
And if so, what can those other players do to "prove" that they can tank, or main heal, or do DPS? If you are going to make judgments based solely on spec, what can "offspecs" (haven't heard that word in a while!) like Mlpk do to "prove" that they can fill their roles?
Filed under: Warrior, Analysis / Opinion, Virtual selves, Instances, Ask WoW Insider, Classes, Talents
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Acceptable Risk Oct 26th 2007 8:17PM
The ability for a tank to handle himself in an instance is dependent, in order of importance, the competency of the rest of the group, the tank's skill, and after those, his spec.
Sure, tank-specced classes do a better job tanking for complete incompetents, but if a group is willing to cooperate, they can manage just fine without in the standard instances.
Hell, most instances can practically go without a tank if the group has enough appropriate CC and cooperates.
ilmish Oct 26th 2007 8:21PM
I can't imagine kicking someone based on spec--all that matters is that they get their part of the job done. Now, if someone says they can tank and they can't do the job, that's different. But ya gotta give the tank a chance, and if there are no aggroissues and the healer can keep up, then no problem.
dpoyesac Oct 26th 2007 8:31PM
I'm on a low-population server where Horde (For the Horde!) is vastly outnumbered, and in a casual guild focused on leveling mid-range toons.
If I can find a guy wearing plate, HE'S IN THE PuG! A warrior has to be totally incompetent to get kicked out, and his spec certainly won't be the deciding factor.
outforprophets Oct 26th 2007 8:33PM
I'd be sure to raise an eyebrow if it's the first time I've met the tank but I'll probably give him a chance. If he's truly a good tank then he will do well, if not, he's gone in a few clicks.
Kats Oct 26th 2007 8:37PM
I would never kick someone out of a pug because they weren't prot specced or kick out a shadow priest or feral druid who was willing to heal. I do look up all pug members in the armory but not so much to rule out based on spec. I will ask a non-prot warrior if he is willing to tank. If so, then I have no problems with it.
What will sometimes be an issue for me is looking at talent choices and seeing someone with a spec that is not just "off spec" or pvp oriented but a spec that shows absolutely no understanding of the class. I would probably not want that person in my group. I was recently playing my hunter and was going to Ramparts. The tank was a feral druid. With a main as a feral druid, I looked at his talent choices. He had 47 points in feral somehow managing to miss many of the most important feral talents! His resto talents showed no understanding of what a feral druid needs form the resto tree. I knew looking at his spec that he couldn't possibly have the first idea how to tank and he didn't.... If I saw something like that again, I wouldn't group with that person.
Alu Oct 26th 2007 9:12PM
Depends on which instances are being run. If its heroic and I'm not familiar with the tank, then yeah hes out if hes not prot specced. As harsh as it sounds, it saves everybody in the group more time and gold by just replacing the empty spot with a more suitable tank.
Jericon Oct 26th 2007 9:38PM
There is a group that I run nightly Heroics with and we have no problems. One of our usual tanks is a PVP SPecced Fury Warrior.
Our other 'members' are myself (holy pally), an Enhancement Shaman, a warlock (or mage on his alt) and a shadow priest.
As you can tell, far from a 'conventional' group, but it works well.
rick gregory Oct 26th 2007 9:27PM
@5... perfectly said (hmm so why am I commenting... ?) But I do think that a lot of PUGs will not give the non-prot specced Warrior a chance, partly based on thoughts like #6's. Too many people have given that Fury warrior a chance... and it's been painful.
Personally, I'd give the person a chance if he claimed he'd tanked the instance before (or similar ones) and said he could do the job. I'd just ask... "hey, you're not Prot, you sure you can tank this?" If they say yeah.... why NOT give them a shot? it's a game, not a real death...
Memzer Oct 26th 2007 9:43PM
Depends on their gear and the difficulty of the instance. We've had holy paladins with decent tanking gear tank all normal content (and some heroic content) so there's no question that a non-protection talented warrior can do the same with equal or better gear.
That said I've run enough heroics to say without question that I'll never take an unknown non-protection warrior to a heroic. It just ends up costing you far too much for repairs.
Regardless however, I always check people on the armory before I invite them to groups (or join groups) for this reason. I wouldn't make a warrior go all the way to an instance and then kick him out of a group.
TonyMotorola Oct 26th 2007 9:45PM
Some people don't have the time to sit through half a dozen wipes over 2 hours in a heroic for a fury warrior to prove he can't tank an instance.
Don't sign up to fill a role in a party or raid if you're not bringing the right spec, tools and consumables to get the job done. If they're looking for a tank, come spec'd to tank or don't come at all. It's unfair to your team to try to con them into bringing you to fill a role you can't fill.
I'm sorry, but a fury warrior isn't going to cut it in a PuG. Any DPS class worth their salt will rip aggro right off a fury warrior sporting a sword and board. Healing a warrior not prepared to tank is quite a chore for your average PuG healer. It's unfair to ask that of a PuG because you want drops.
The problem isn't the group for booting you. The problem is you. You shouldn't offer to fill a role that you realistically can't fill.
Dave Oct 26th 2007 9:45PM
There needs to be a mod that allows people to give ebay-style feedback to players they've grouped with.
Until something like that comes along (DiggKarma sucks, gave me tons of errors and needs a lot of work and a lot more users on my server) we're stuck with looking at their gear and their spec.
It's not that someone's spec means everything, but the vast majority of people who THINK they're awesome at a non-spec function, are really just being carried by people who are either their friends and won't tell them the truth, guildmates who don't want to piss off other people in their guild, or people who are desperate enough to not care to tell you that you're a terrible whatever you are. And maybe you're the 1/100 that's good at being a main healer in a heroic as an elemental shaman when you throw on some heal gear, but chances are real good that you're not.
Until then, we've only had gear and hoping the armory was updated after the first pull goes a little weird to figure out what the deal is. Most of the time in a PUG, you just sigh, bitch about it in guild chat and hope you don't die too many times. At least that's what I do. Unfortunately, this gives the people a superior sense of awesomeness that says "I can do it!" when they take their offspec roles into a instance. You're probably not as good as you think you are, yes even you who's been told by your guildies that you're great. The truth is that you play a class everyone needs, even if you decided to spec some other way than the useful one and as such as long as it's not TOO terrible, people are going to suck it up and deal with it and kiss ass so they can get what they want out of the arrangement and you can keep feeling good about what you do. I'm sorry if this doesn't mesh with the reality you see, but that's what goes on more times than not. Yes, there are probably exceptions, but you are probably not the one.
At least now, after inspecting whatever gear you're wearing we'll also be able to see if it's your spec that's causing the frustration. It won't necessarily get anyone kicked out, but it'll definitely give a legit reason to finding a replacement for crappy group members.
frank Oct 26th 2007 9:56PM
i love this game!! I use to play for hours!
http://www.spymac.com/details/?2290046
Matthew Rossi Oct 26th 2007 10:09PM
The last two real posts (10 and 11) are exactly why I won't tank for PuG's. If you're so hot on a prot spec warrior, go find one. If you can't, tough. Get a feral or a prot pally. If you can't? Not my problem. I can spec prot and tank for my guild, I don't have the time or interest to tank for you.
Charlie Oct 26th 2007 10:12PM
In non heroics i see no problem having a non-specced tank or healer. For instance i healed a normal SH in shadow, with a holy pally tanking.
Of course, its gear dependent. My priest also has 1700 healing buffed (in holy) and my friend's tanking gear wasnt that bad.
But the point is, as far as normal instances go, its not a real issue.
For the person asking the question: Go with someone you know. if they know you can tank, it really wont be an issue. If you have good tanking gear, then it also wont be an issue.
I think you will find that along with 2.3, there will be alot fewer people doing normal istance runs, since honored is very eazy to get, so you might be sol anyways. [i would never have a fury war tank a heroic, even if he has great gear, the boses hit to hard]
bugmaster Oct 26th 2007 10:17PM
a good idea is to not get into pugs anymore there mostly a waste of time anyway
for the rest ive did 5 mans with just 2 BM hunters and there pets tanking while a arms war tanked the bosses so anythings possible, but then again that was with a guild grp so didnt realy have to worry about wipes, and tbh i would be rather hesitating to go with a not prot specced war as MT n a pug because i just cant know how good he/she is
Sean Oct 26th 2007 10:19PM
I say give the Fury a shot and see how the first few pulls go. But as others have said, the rest of the group has to know how not to steal aggro, too.
I left a PuG not long ago because only the Tank and I had a threat meter installed. The first time the fire mage pulled aggro we asked him to watch his threat. The second time we wiped I hearthed out. I made it as far as the Mailbox when the Tank showed up behind me. ;-)
Does the new Inspect show your whole tree, or just your point spread?
Rerolled Oct 26th 2007 10:29PM
Far as non-heroics go, who cares, I tank those on my rogue alt for kicks. But as a healer, I refuse to go into a pug for one of the more difficult heroics with a non-prot specced warrior unless I already know they're a competent tank.
Paul Beard Oct 26th 2007 11:26PM
Tony motorala is the epitome of idiot pugs.
I have healed every single normal 5 man in the game as full ret, I have healed everything up to brd as a shadow priest with 0 pts in Holy. I tanked crypts last night as Holy Paladin and as soon as we were finished people wanted to turn around and do it again. On my shadow priest I have even been complemented as the best healer people have ever had:)
And yet I heal sm cath, get an upgrade, 0 deaths, go back again with a different group and after traveling to the instance get booted because someone looked me up on armory and I am not holy.
Gear+skill>spec
Scott Oct 26th 2007 11:30PM
This is a useful too just to see who's retarded at a glance. Like a lock with +fire dmg and UA. Or a Feral / Boomkin spec, or Elemental / Enhance spec.
You look at their spec, and if it's retarded, then most likely they're a craptastic player and thus /kick. It's really NOT hard to look up a good way to use your class, and if you're unable to do even that, then why should I bother tanking / healing for you?
ErsatzPotato Oct 27th 2007 12:13AM
I ask. If the player claims to be able to it, player is in. If player does something dumb I check the gear--not the spec--and if it's not insane (healing chest on 'lock, spirit on tank, etc) player gets another chance.
Goes badly a third time still at the start either that player leaves or I do unless everyone is really good company. Wiling to wipe and have fun and teach. Totally unwilling to wipe with random twits.
If the weak link isn't a jerk, I'll ask privately if they're new to the role and either offer to help them learn or point to someone who can. It's so darn easy to solo to 40, 60, 70 without a single group that lots do. (This may be shocking for wowinsider readers but the soloing part of the game is EASY. Many, many, many players ding 70 without ever having done an instance.) Suddenly they're expected to have threat meters [for the love of god please do!] and not understand group mechanics and still be in SLabs because they've a quest for it.
Have to admit I've little patience for rogues. If a rogue stealths and goes off to explore an instance and dies, I laugh. If the rogue causes a wipe doing so "I can stealth! it's fine!" the rogue goes on ignore forever.