Is Druid insta-shifting overpowered?
Serennia, a gnomish warrior on Tichondrius, believes that the changes to druid shape-shifting [shown in the video clip above] in patch 2.3 make it too easy for druids to get out of snares without being caught in their vulnerable caster form. She puts it very eloquently:
In 2.3, druids can shift from any form to any form (ie cat to bear; bear to travel, etc) without having to enter human form. But, it gets worse, they can shift from the same form to the same form also (bear to bear). Why is this significant? It's basically a free snare removal without ever having to expose themself in human form, making it much more difficult for anyone to kill them. It still costs them mana to do it, yes, but it's an easy trade-off for never being locked in caster form with no armor anymore to get away from a melee. So much for those well-timed caster-form kidney shots, right?She says that this may or may not be what Blizzard was intending when they decided to go ahead with this change, but for my part, I think it's a buff druids really need, especially feral ones, who are likely to get the most use out of insta-shifting between forms. I've said before that, although restoration druids enjoy a lot of success in PvP, it's very hard for many feral druids, and personally, I think this sort of mobility can help make up for other areas where the druid is not as strong, and can provide more synergy between the druid's different forms and abilities without some of the risks that made this synergy impractical before. What do you think?
Druids needed help in 5v5 with a bit better caster form survivability, and they got that with the new Natural Perfection changes and a bit more utility. However, they did NOT need to be even harder to kill with this short-sighted change. Melee might as well not even attempt to catch a good druid anymore, and well, casters never could to begin with.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Urthona Nov 2nd 2007 5:39PM
I think it is great. Now give me my indoor Roots, and give Phaelia her OOC rez.
Ryan Nov 2nd 2007 5:46PM
A warrior complaining about pvp imbalance? That's rich.
Zinoron Nov 2nd 2007 5:49PM
The complaint this warrior frets about is ultimately unjustified as the only real difference that the UI changes actually make is the reduce the impact of latency upon switching forms. As such, druids were already, technically, able to do this. Dropping out of Form wasn't subject to GCD and druids were historically supposed to be difficult to kite (or it wouldn't have been a mechanic of form switching to begin with).
Heilig Nov 2nd 2007 5:54PM
What do I think? I think that a bear or cat being able to shift into their same form is a bug that will be fixed. I also think that shapeshifting shouldn't dispel snares, only a spellcast should be able to do that. Let trees and owls dispel snares while shapeshifted, bears and cats should only have physical abilities. If you want to sneak up on me and get all scratchy, you get to stay where I put you, unless you want to go caster for a while. That's the trade off to being the jack of all trades. Feral druids are far from underpowered in PvP.
On an entirely different note, I think that ANY complaining about PvP balance by feral druids is laughable. At least you don't ahve to re-spec to be able to switch between tank and DPS. When they put a branch in your feral tree forcing you to choose a permanent path of either bear or cat, then you can complain about imbalance.
Jeff Morgan Nov 2nd 2007 5:57PM
I couldn't agree with Serennia more, and it's always a pleasant surprise to see a suggestion or a gripe both well-thought and well-written.
I've always had a problem with the snare removal for druids, with or without direct shifting. Snare removal is not a problem per se, as plenty of classes have them (Bestial Wrath, Imp. Sprint, etc). The problem is that the ability is limited only by mana pool, and not a cooldown. As a hunter I find this consistently problematic. I get a bear charge, wing clip, and have it instantly removed again and again.
Again, as Serennia said, this has much less effect on much needed druid survivability in natural form than on overall pvp endurance. Druids can already be teeth-gnashingly frustrating to kill due to mobility, and giving them more of the same is ignoring the other areas in which the class needs work.
This seems like an attempted quick-fix for a complex problem that just wasn't thought through.
Autumnbear Nov 2nd 2007 5:59PM
Just change the snare mechanics.
ringu0 Nov 2nd 2007 5:59PM
Yes, it is.
Also a case of a druid writing about pvp being hard for his class is, indeed, rich.
Sonvar Nov 2nd 2007 6:04PM
Its not really OP but I personally don't think switching from the same form to the same form makes much sense.
@4
If you are going to complain about it allowing them to get out of snares you're a bit behind since they've always been able to. Its not like you can't reapply it and the fact that the druid has to spend mana towards it limits how many times it can be done anyways. If a druid does nothing but keep shifting to get out of snares they'll be OOM quick.
infection Nov 2nd 2007 6:06PM
W T F
I'm leveling my druid, bottom line.
As if they don't have enough already, now they will insta change to next form?
Don't worry #1, you druids complain SO much that you will be getting indoor roots shortly (if not 2.3 as well)
We could say the switch is overpowered for pvp and arena.. but I mean.. what other class can use gathering skills while in flight? (this means nothing hardly in PVE server, but on my PVP server, if you want to gather, you better be ready to fight for it.... woops.. NOT A DRUID)
They are taking the shifting forms WAY overboard now.
RogueJedi86 Nov 2nd 2007 6:08PM
I don't think they can be in Bear Form, and re-go into Bear Form. I'm pretty sure that even with the new changes, one has to leave Bear Form for a half second, then re-enter Bear Form, to go from a form into the exact same form. Put it on a macro, and it's nearly instant.
But the one form to another? Yeah, that works. And hey, no big deal either. It's never cost any mana to leave a Form, only to enter a Form. The only difference now, is that a macro isn't required to demorph and remorph.
Ryan Nov 2nd 2007 6:09PM
@4 It is not a bug, the dev's have confirmed as much. The change to allow same-form shifting allows bears to use health stones/pots and is definitely working 'as intended'.
Kaitor Nov 2nd 2007 6:10PM
And there it goes again... "OMG NERF DROOS PLZ!11!11!" everyone complain about every changes in other classes cause they want changes in their own classes... but know what? most of the classes are already OP you are just complaining about druids turning from a almost useless pvp class (talking about feral) to a realy playable class...
Kaitor @ US - Eldre'Thalas
WeirdoKitty Nov 2nd 2007 6:10PM
People playing this game seem to always find something to complain about. Not long ago the popular perception was that Feral Druids were so underpowered that I literally had someone whisper me in AV "Seeing you in cat form make me want to quit playing WoW." This was before the fighting started, just my mere presence made them think I was a stupid newbie.
Now it's "Feral druids are far from underpowered in PvP" to the point any change is considered overpowered.
I really feel for the developers for all the flak they catch.
I expect they will stop the ability to shapeshift into the same form, but any and all complaints I have to take with a grain salt.
Zechleton Nov 2nd 2007 6:13PM
Druids are insanely overpowered in every kind of PvP except arenas. They just do not die, and now it's even harder to kill them. Sadly, Blizzard seems to care only about PvE carebears and Arena nerds - the rest of us just have to put up with ignoring Druids and hope they go away.
bennet Nov 2nd 2007 6:15PM
Maybe the folks who think shifting to escape movement-impairing effects is overpowered don't understand that shifting isn't something that a druid, especially a feral one, particularly wants to do. As Sonvar pointed out, constant shifting is a good way to be OOM.
In addition, when you shift out of bear, your rage resets. When you shift out of cat, you keep any combo points you've accumulated against a given target but lose your energy. I've had opponents in PVP slap down snares specifically to force me to shift and break my momentum. So if you know how to exploit it, an apparent strength can be turned into a weakness - or at least a more level playing field than is at first obvious.
thush Nov 2nd 2007 6:15PM
The mod EZDismount let's you do this right now. This crying about a druid running away is ironic coming from a class player that can spam hamstring and piercing howl. I can already power shift all day long from 1 for to another using a mod and some key mashing, so it's a good thing to put into the UI. Oh and I've done the PvP grind on a warrior to rank 10, I have 70 druid and a 70 warrior. Warriors especially should stop crying. Druids don't have fear, or a 30 minute IWIN button like recklessness...they have the ability to run away. I'm sure it's annoying in arenas, but then again so is poly, fear, MC, stun, crip poison, deathcoil, bubbles, traps, the list goes on. Mana shifting costs are enough to prevent too much shift spamming, so L2P or L2spamstring.
Heilig Nov 2nd 2007 6:16PM
"If you are going to complain about it allowing them to get out of snares you're a bit behind since they've always been able to."
Just because it's been there forever doesn't mean it's not still unfair.
"Its not like you can't reapply it"
Actually, it's exactly like that. What's the cooldown on Frost Nova again? I know it's longer than the cooldown on shapeshift.
"and the fact that the druid has to spend mana towards it limits how many times it can be done anyways. If a druid does nothing but keep shifting to get out of snares they'll be OOM quick."
Yep, and still able to do sick DPS to me with tooth and claw. Meanwhile, I've blown my mana trying to reapply the snare over and over again.
And you know what, I think I'll elaborate a bit here. Druids should have to pick one shapeshift form and only one. In WC3 there were Druids of the Claw, Druids of the Fang, etc. They were able to shapeshift because they felt an affinity to one animal or another. Let the lowbies have multiple forms to get a feel for how they work, but make the higher levels pick a form and stay with it.
Heilig Nov 2nd 2007 6:23PM
Oh, and for the record, I think this particular change is not balanced, not any and all changes, as one of the other posters seems to think. Give ruids their indoor roots already. All the other CC classes don't have to worry whether they're inside or out. Why should druids suffer?
Prometheus Nov 2nd 2007 6:25PM
This is all just a vast conspiracy to divert our attention from Lock Fear....
Leave us Druids alone!
Random feral Nov 2nd 2007 6:38PM
To #7, there is a big difference between Druid talent trees for PvP. Sadly most feral's respec resto for Arena each week, at least those with good ratings. You see all the druids in those lists of people with super high arena ratings? Nearly all resto for arena, perhaps a couple balance ones. As for Natural perfection, that's a resto talent, not a feral one, like resto needed more PvP help.
As for #4 yeah that's the basic PvP mechanic, gimped rogue or gimped tank. Either way is still far less powerful than the true class, especially PvP...lower damaging rogue with far less stunlocking abilities or lower defensive warrior without mortal strike, etc. Obviously you aren't quite so good at PvP if you need additional nerfs to be able to kill one of the weakest PvP classes.
For #5, I bet you can wing clip me for far longer than I can keep shifting. Teeth gnashingly difficult to kill is because we're running away, and unlikely having much success damaging you while we're running away.