Forum post of the day: Docking DKP

by Amanda Dean Apr 27th 2008 at 2:00PM

To function properly, all guilds must have rules for participation, gear, and general order. Since the ancient MMORPG days, many guilds have assigned Dragon Kill Points (DKP) to players for their participation in raids and events. The points are turned in for gear rewards from raids. Some guilds dock DKP for members that do not meet their standards. Aerte of Blackrock has questioned the wisdom of his guild's policy on this practice for a member that had regularly violated the rules.

The conundrum begins with the statement. "Recently we had a member quit who during the course of his rather brief stay managed to have about 130 DKP docked for various infractions. Not showing up specced properly, gems unacceptable, enchants unacceptable or non-existent, bad attitude....etc..." The original poster expressed that this may not be the best way to keep players in line.

Responses seemed to fall into two categories, neither of which support docking DKP as a disciplinary practice. Some recommended skipping DKP docking all together because there is too much discretion in enforcement. Others suggested benching raiders that fail to follow rules or dismissing them for consistent infractions. Since raids are usually carefully choreographed, it's important for everyone to carry their own weight.

Ciaree of Khazgoroth suggested that perhaps rather than using penalties, all raiders who meet the requirements of the game are given DKP for meeting each criteria. For example showing up on time, with the proper gear, and the correct spec might award players three DKP before the raid even begins. This method uses positive reinforcement rather than punishment to resolve the problem.

How does your guild handle those who are not prepared?

Tags: discipline, DKP, docking-dkp, dragon-kill-points, forum-post-of-the-day, gkick, penalty, preparation, prepared

Filed under: Items, Analysis / Opinion, Guilds, Raiding, Forums

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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)

JohnG228 Apr 27th 2008 2:46PM

I agree with the reward system. Less stick, more carrot. Too much stick, just pisses people off.

Abhinav Kumar Apr 27th 2008 3:00PM

How do we handle people who are not prepared for the raid? Kick them. There are always more fish in the sea for "THIS IS BLACKROCK!"

Majeere Apr 27th 2008 6:59PM

Thats completely stupid. Look I haven't done the endgame raids but screw any guild that tells me I dont have the right gems....I mean, are you serious? Well hell if you want me to have all this certain stuff then the guild should pay for their members to have the gear and specs that they deem they must. If not, then you have no right to tell someone how to play.

Pucelle Apr 27th 2008 9:23PM

Majeere has never raided a day in their life, and I'd wager they've never played any kind of competitive sport or excelled in any group effort, where success depends on every person doing the best they can in order to meet a goal.

Treima Apr 28th 2008 1:47AM

@Majeere

I laugh at the naivete, or perhaps just plain stupidity, of your comment. If all raiders had this sense of BS entitlement, no guild would last long enough to down anything resembling a raid boss.

Cynra Apr 28th 2008 7:13AM

Correct, Majeere, they have no right to tell someone how to play. But those raiders then have no right to tell the raid leaders to tell them.

In order to be successful, you need to be dressed for success. That means having gear appropriate to what you're attempting to do and having it enchanted and gemed properly. If you don't, that's one person who is going to be less effective than he can be. And these are the days of the old 40-man raids when 25 people could effectively carry fifteen other people to the loot; between the weird spike damage, rage timers, and various other factors, it's much less feasible to take people into a raid who aren't going to pull their weight and even prepare to be successful.

I doubt anyone is advocate docking a priest who comes in all Bonus Healing gems or even a lot of Intellect gems. That's a variation of playstyle (and one that I probably wouldn't agree with, though I could maybe understand the reasoning). However, if I saw a priest come into a raid with Defense gems or Attack Power gems I'd have to question if he's ready or suitable for the raid.

Cynra Apr 28th 2008 7:14AM

Well, I buggered up again! Blame it on the early morning.

"Correct, Majeere, they have no right to tell someone how to play. But those raiders then have no right to tell the raid leaders to TAKE them."

Corrected!

Abhinav Kumar Apr 28th 2008 12:42PM

I didn't mean to make such a hot topic here but i still stand by my comment. If the person is not spec'd or geared properly for their class, we can just find someone else who cares enough to do it right.

blackangely2k Apr 27th 2008 3:04PM

How abotu don't run DKP at all? Just don't invite the idiots that show up PvP-specced with no consumables to the next raid. By playing games with DKP all you do is create a "black box" which generates drama when people question why so-and-so got docked and the other guy didn't. Nothign control rai behavior better than controlling who gets in and who doesn't...and you don't need DKP at all for that.

Tariff Apr 27th 2008 3:15PM

The guild I'm in doesn't dock DKP. In return, we simply make it rank > DKP.

Raiders > Members > Alts/Family&Friends > Guests

People who can't meet the raider requirements are just members, and are 2nd on the loot food chain; they can't win even if they have more DKP than a raider, no matter what. Raider is an earned rank in our guild, and earning it = your best bet at getting gear.

It's simple, easy, and it works perfectly with zero-sum, open-bid (and I'd assume other systems too) DKP.

Sparuuto Apr 27th 2008 3:25PM

More stick. MORE STICK.

People that screw it up deserve to be pissed off, they're pissing off either 9 or 24 other people.

Treima Apr 28th 2008 1:50AM

I know what you mean, but there is a fine line between stern and downright draconian when it comes to using the stick. On top of that, if you do use the stick frequently, you have to be ruthlessly consistent with it, or you will find yourself embroiled in guild drama faster than you can say "/gkick".

Breezer Apr 27th 2008 3:36PM

There's a general acceptance in the FFXI community that Japanese people are far superior gamers than the NAs and EUs. This stereotype faded over time (even though it's mostly true and JPs are gaming freaks), but I always remembered what a bilingual JP said to our PUG exp party one day after everyone in the group tore him to shreds for not understanding a more advanced function of his class.

After everyone had belittled the hell out of him (I'm sure it made them feel good to call a JP a noob). He didn't get defensive, he just said, "How do I do it. Teach me." So we did. Our party was better off for it.

Later he explained that that was the difference between Japanese and Americans. If a JP doesn't understand something, his party tries to help him and make him a better player. If an American doesn't understand him, it's a race to see who can point out his flaws and put him down fastest and harshest.

So, maybe the guy who gets punished for not being born a WoW expert isn't motivated to become more knowledgeable or a better player when he's treated with no respect. He is, after all, spending his own time to help his guild.

Maybe instead of, "OMFG stregth gems?! u fkn hunterd nub! 100 DKP minus noob LOL!" Guilds should try, "Hey, you're figuring out gemming, cool! But strength gems don't really do anything for hunters. Try to get your hands on suchnsuch gem and you'll be topping the meters every time :D"

Rob Apr 28th 2008 2:02AM

Really excellent point here. Especially on the official forums, its far easier (and too common) to tear the poster to shreds over spec/gear than to answer their question ie, what spec should i run, etc. Its not that people are not willing to learn, rather that far too few bother to teach. Which is why people like BRK and BBB are revered, they try to teach how to play the class. How many bloggers are like them? Very few. (I blog, but don't teach, i don't consider myself expert enough - but I will answer questions on the official forum).

Cynra Apr 28th 2008 7:22AM

Not to be contrarian, Rob, but BRK got embroiled in his own issue concerning helping people recently. I vaguely remember that he snagged someone's blog post without permission when she posted for some help on how to deal with unsolicited advice. And rather than deal with that issue, BRK examined her spec and then berrated her for how she was choosing to level. It errupted into its own little discussion in his comments -- and I don't think he ever addressed his conduct or the fact that he took her post from another community without permission.

I'm a long-time fan of BRK, but I did feel that he was a little uncouth for having done that. It's his blog and he is absolutely free to post what he wants, but it did cause me to stop and think for a moment.