Forum Post of the Day: Invitation requirements
by Amanda Dean 
Jun 5th 2008 at 11:58PM
We all know that PuGging instances can be a pain, especially finding a tank. Gelin, a tank onThe Forgotten Coast, says that she checks the armory before she invites. If you don't match her standards for armor, weapons, and spell stats, she will not invite you to a group. As a tank She feels empowered since tanks are rare, and dps is much easier to find.
If the original post had been more eloquent, people may have viewed it as insightful, it makes sense to be properly geared before asking for a group. As it stands, the responses have been primarily negative, along the lines that this is a bad attitude to have in the game. This thread is legendary because of Eyonix's response:
You have left over talent points.
You should not be so judgmental.
I wonder what it's like to be knocked off your high horse by the most aloof of the CM's. It must hurt, a wee bit. I've learned to generally check someone's gear out at the beginning of an instance, due to a poor experience with a hunter with empty armor slots. What do you look for in your PuG?
Edit: Original post text after the break.
If you are wearing any green items I don't invite.
If your weapon(s) arnt epic, I won't invite.
If you have less then 1000 spell damage, I won't invite.
If you have less then 1300+ healing, I won't invite.
If you misspell anything or use numbers 4 words when messaging me, I won't invite.
Why? Because you are a dime a dozen, thanks to pretty much everyone having arena and battleground epics (except tanks) its pretty much reasonable for me to expect this.
Filed under: Blizzard, Instances, Classes, Forums, Forum Post of the Day
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
typhponandrew Jun 6th 2008 12:18AM
A great response from a Blue, and some spot on comments by the community that point to a few imbalances in the tank's attitude (eg. ilevel of his gear compared to what he was asking for).
However the CM did incite the flamewar though by participating - if there was no Blue post this would have fallen off the radar pronto.
But I still blogged it because it gave me a chuckle. :)
http://typhoonandrew.wordpress.com/2008/06/06/blue-owns-a-puging-tank/
sheepe Jun 6th 2008 5:57AM
I'd say the lack of competency in heroic groups is due to people not having to have ever run a normal instance in their life since the keys got dropped down to honoured req.
@Dave: You know greens can be better than blues sometimes and certain classes can have a very hard time picking up something decent to fill some slots.
sheepe Jun 6th 2008 6:06AM
that was silly i seem to have replyed to the wrong post... sorry
Naix Jun 6th 2008 10:50AM
Yes it was. But as a new tank myself, Just hit 70 last night and am gearing up for heroics. I to am going to be very picky. Seeing as tanks are the new healers in terms of availability at least for the next few months. I am going to be very picky who I tank for. My rules for tanking are as follows.
We wipe 3 times on trash, I leave
We wipe on the boss cause of agro pulls, I leave
The healer gets blamed, I leave
Good luck.
Dave Jun 6th 2008 1:10AM
I check people on the armory before most groups (or most groups if I'm tanking for them) just to get a baseline level of competency and experience. Not necessarily to see that they've got all epics and a specific set of talent points or whatever... but I personally like to see all PVE gear for a PVE instance, a PVE spec and generally the right sort of gear in the right slots, the right gems, etc. Depending on the instance, decent stats with their gear too. If you're going to be a healer for a harder heroic, kara or a 25-man, I personally insist on no green gear and things to be enchanted and/or gemmed. Stuff with no gems is bad, not sucking it up and enchanting your gear is bad, etc. Having caster gear as a healer, or just poor choices in general is not desireable. It's not to be elitist, I'll play with someone in nothing but dungeon blues, but they have to at least show that they make an effort at understanding the game.
However, i think at the same time a lot of lesser intelligent people (like that tank in the post) treat gear inspections like a bad internet meme. They see other people doing it and figure that if they do it but are totally more strict than the guy they're copying or set some arbitrarily high limit (preferably one that will overcompensate for their own lack of gear and/or intelligence) then they're going to be successful.
I really don't think that's the case, and it's fun to see kara pugs demanding +1800 heals, +1200dmg or 1800AP DPS'ers or whatever. You can almost always spot the guy who organizes it, based on their own gear being mostly blue and you know they're doing the run in hopes of getting 9 people to carry them through the whole thing and gear up their new alt. Maybe 1/10 of the pugs like that are really all T5+ geared people just looking to do a quick badge run, but for the most part it's always one slacker getting everyone else to do their work. At least on my server.
So, a good idea but taken a bit too far by people who shouldn't be throwing stones in the first place.
Craig Jun 6th 2008 3:36AM
FYI, in no way can "competency" be determined by someone's armory. You could easily have someone decked out in epics under 2 dangerous circumstances:
1. PvP welfare epics (no competency required)
2. Genuine PvE epics obtained via gearing up (not paying attention in the raid/instance and just looting)
A side note, I've definitely noticed a lot of folks that DO lack competency (with or without gear) and was thinking this might be a result of the faster leveling system. i.e. players don't learn their roles in instances since quest EXP was buffed, and they don't actually do instances. Thoughts?
Cynra Jun 6th 2008 7:05AM
Craig, that was one of my biggest concerns whent hey lowered the leveling requirements a few patches ago -- as well as making many quests that required multiple people suddenly soloable. My fear, and perhaps rightfully so given the waves of neophytes running amok, was that these people wouldn't have the basic mechanics of the game down, which you would normally learn in a group or going into instances with like-leveled individuals. Without that requirement, I've seen people who have quite literally almost never stepped foot into an instance suddenly capable of entering a heroic dungeon and yet not know what aggro is or how to crowd control or that different classes are often assigned other basic roles.
It's not a matter of being elitist. As I've pointed out in the past on this site, I am a frequent PuGer. 99.9% of my groups are found by selling myself in the LFG interface. And I'll join heroic groups with a tank in all greens despite the fact that I'm decked out in gear far surpassing the required level for the instance. Why?
1) I really like the challenge, and
2) I enjoy helping others.
If we don't take the opportunity to teach others the basic mechanics of the game and help them improve their performance, we don't have the right to lament about the lack of "good" tanks and "good" healers and "good" DPSers.
The old World of Warcraft adage is that gear doesn't make a good player. With how easy it is to acquire shiny blues and purples, we can honestly say that gear really isn't a deciding factor for groups, especially since soem greens can be better than blues, as sheepe noted.
I'd rather take a neophyte who is willing to listen and learn than a purple wielding asshat who thinks he's God's gift to the group and is just an epic fail.
Daddywarbuck of Farstriders Jun 6th 2008 12:28PM
Dave Said:
"I personally insist on no green gear and things to be enchanted and/or gemmed"
That is a horrible standard. You miss out on all the people who thoughtfully chose gear, and only get people who play a lot and who just look at colors rather than actual stats. Green gear can be better than PURPLE gear for certain slots and classes. "___ of the ____" gear is often great for any classes that have a bonus tied into a particular stat.
The color of their gear is *how often it drops mixed with the level of difficulty of the place it is obtained from*. Not how good it is.
Their *stats for their role* is what is important: MP5 + heal for a pally healer, +int second, with armor and HP a third.
For instance, my boots are the +40 int greens with Vitality on them. This gives me +mana +spellcrit +MP5 and +heal. There are any number of blue feet I could get that would be available for my class, but *none* of them would help my role better, nor improve my stats in a net benefit way. I need the Sabatons from the QD badge vendor to find a non-MrT Heroic or non-Raid upgrade for my feet. I have passed on blue feet because they are not as good as my greens. I don't use my two purple trinkets and instead use a talesite owl, as that mana regen is better than what the purples do. I don't enchant my back, cause frankly, all suck for a healer who wears plate.
As you seem to desire a simplistic rule for quickly ruling out a lot of people, may I suggest http://be.imba.hu? It analyzes people's gear and stats and gives both a number, and places them on a continuum showing where their upper and lower limits are.
There are several of the heroics with any reasonably competent tank which I can farm now in less than an hour. However your rule would exclude me. Sounds like your rule is broken cause it misses theorycrafters who have to get to Zul'Aman or Late Kara to really progress any farther gear wise.
PeeWee Jun 6th 2008 12:10PM
Craig:
That is why I refuse to boost people through instances (exception people I know, but I prefer to use an alt of the proper level instead and offer to try and find a group). I don't want to end up being in a group where some duckfart having been pulled through the levels ends up and not knowing how to play his class.
Unfortunately, the faster levelling system thwarts that somehow. I would prefer to see that system only work if you already have a max-level character on your account, or you're back to the slower system.
Dave Jun 6th 2008 1:23PM
I have difficulty I suppose filling the comment boxes with my full replies lately so I've started a crappy blog.
http://www.angrytauren.com/?p=10
that perhaps more accurately fits my attitude towards things a bit better.
I absolutely disagree with anyone who thinks you can't tell something about someone from their armory profile. If you really think that, then you're probably someone who has something wrong already.
As for green gear being a better in-slot item than blue/purple gear, I don't think that's a very intelligent statement most of the time. There are very very few exceptions, and almost no exceptions that aren't easily ruled out by easy to get heroic or badge gear. Same goes for enchants. If you're saying these things, you're the exact person I'd prefer not to group with.
Ultimately that's what this game is about. I'd prefer to play with people who are of a similar mindset to me. I'm sure there's groups out there for everyone, and lots of people would rather find people who choose to at least make an effort. If you're using green plate boots because you for whatever reason think an extra 20 int helps you more than any of the Mail +healing boots, Leather +healing boots or even cloth +healing boots, then that's fine... but I wholeheartedly disagree. Especially for a healer who shouldn't be getting hit in the first place.
Xeptor Jul 17th 2008 8:03AM
If I copied your exact word I couldn't say it better...LOL
I love you : )
Megalomaniac Jun 6th 2008 1:32AM
First off, this would have totally gone under my radar if you hadn't posted this. Secondly, this totally made my evening! Lastly, if i'm pug tanking or healing a heroic I generally armory people to check *reputation* b/c the rep tab tells a story about how familiar someone is with a particular set of instances (or if they have raid experience pre and post bc). Experience and good attitude go a long way in this game. If their rep is low then I check out talents. If talents are messed up I'll usually pass on them, unless they've got a positive attitude at which point ill glance at their gear to see if it's heroic sensible.
I think a lot of people start with checking out player gear though, and expect everyone to be fully purpled out in za and up quality gear. This makes it difficult for good new players, respec-ers, and rerollers to advance in anything but pvp. I actually think this dynamic contributes heavily to the often complained about tank shortage.
Daddywarbuck of Farstriders Jun 6th 2008 2:22PM
The REP check is awesome. Never ever though to do that.
That will be great for my quest to turn heroic mech into my personal farmland.....
Sha-tar rep greater that aldor/scryer? Welcome aboard.....
--Daddywarbuck
Eric Jun 6th 2008 11:47AM
The only way that might not work is if that character is a new 70, but they have another 70 who is an old hand at all the instances. Thus they know the instances, but simply haven't run them enough on the current toon. I mean, if you checked out my Shaman, you would see little reputation, but I can assure you I know most of the instances well from my Druid. And yes, it's not the same for different classes, but the familiarity with an instance remains the same.
However, I do think that is much better than checking gear. Experience > Talents > Gear. Of course, gear can be a big thing though, as my Shaman found out during Heroic Bladefist yesterday..... stamina can be important, and he just doens't have enough yet.
Prot warrior execute while simultaneously dying ftw. That group was awesome.
donald.plummer Jun 7th 2008 2:43PM
As a paladin tank just starting heroics in a small guild, we often have to pug for DPS. In pugging normal 70 5-mans, all I ask for is that the person I'm inviting has passable english skills to communicate with. Especially BM hunters. No matter their gear, as long as they can chat I'll invite them. So far that has worked out for me well. To me, what will get you invited into my group fastest is a coherent phrase asking to be invited.
Today I got a tell from a BM hunter which was just "ssss". I replied "ssss?" and all I got back was "hunter". Next up was a guy in a guild named "Ninja Farmers" so after I invited him, I asked in party chat if he really was a ninja and a farmer and if we should worry for our loot. Instead of answering or joking, he just left the party....
At least where I'm at in the game, I don't care what gear the people I'm grouping with have, I just want them to speak some english and communicate with me. This is a social game, so... yar!
Jack Spicer Jun 6th 2008 1:35AM
I do use the armory to check out people for a group, but I only typically do that for the tank and the healer.
The only time I use it to check on DPS is to weed out people who might roll on the same gear as me (for example, on my hunter I don't want to invite an enhancement shaman) or people who might roll on the same bop recipes that I want (Its hard as heck to get a group where you're the only enchanter).
hamiltonerics Jun 6th 2008 11:50AM
I suppose you're allowed to do that, but that also kinda makes you an ass. I mean, this is a social game, and you're not going to allow someone so you can get your OMGEPIX? What if that Enhancement Shaman is amazing? What if that enchanter could heal you through anything? That's just kinda lame.
Jack Spicer Jun 6th 2008 1:37AM
I would really like to see the armory get integrated into the game itself. As much as it isn't so difficult to alt-tab and check the website, imagine how nice it would be not to have to go that extra step.
Verit Jun 6th 2008 10:17AM
Learn 2 use inspect?
uncaringbear Jun 6th 2008 2:35AM
Times like this that I miss the days before we had the armory.