"Inside Higher Ed" compares raiding and teaching
At one point his guild brought in an outside raid leader and raiders from a more progressed guild, and he noticed that the leader was much more willing to hold people accountable for mistakes contributing to their wipes, like healers healing the wrong targets and a tank's inability to pick up Lord Sanguinar (people who have done Kael before will recognize an initial mistake on the writer's part referencing the untankable Thaladred the Darkener -- he catches it in the comments). "I was impressed by their professionalism, their commitment to high standards, and their leader's willingness to call people out when they made mistakes," Golub writes, "but most of my guildmates didn't feel that way when we chatted after the raid in our online guild chat." The outside raiders weren't invited back, Golub's guild never killed Kael, and he started to wonder if the guild's desire to avoid embarrassment over personal mistakes was really a better outcome than all of the fruitless, demoralizing wipes on the boss with no result.
Any WoW player who's raided for any length of time will immediately recognize the classic dilemma; it's difficult to motivate individuals to perform well when criticism is badly phrased or there's just too much of it, but it's a lot harder to motivate 10 or 25 people to hang around for pointless wipes when individuals aren't held responsible for their performance. Golub calls making people uncomfortable over their mistakes "the human price of success." Your friendly neighborhood raid leader probably calls it "If you move during Flame Wreath again, you're out of the raid."
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Guilds, Raiding, Bosses
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Araydan Nov 4th 2008 7:12PM
It all depends how the criticism is handled. Openly yelling/screaming at a player who made a mistake is going to get you nowhere, and elicit nothing but negative reactions.
Constructive criticism with suggestions and advice, perhaps in private will be more receptive to your typical player.
benicrystal Nov 4th 2008 9:04PM
Two words.
LEEEEEEROOOOOOOOOOOOY
JEEEEEEEEEENKIIIIIIIIIIIINS
Eat that, professor.
VSUReaper Nov 4th 2008 10:25PM
Araydan has hit the nail on the head: its all about how the criticism is delivered.
I was in a guild where the raid leader would yell, and scream, and pitch a fit when someone messed up (like asking me to OT in DPS gear and then get pissed when I couldn't take a hit) and people dropped like flies. Pretty soon, the guild dissolved and reformed.
The new guild leader was unrelenting and brutal when it came to calling people out after a wipe, but he did it in a way that made people want to come back after every wipe and keep trying until our time was up.
He never screamed, or yelled, or cussed us out. He calmly explained our mistake, gave us the chance to improve on it, and if we were still messing up, then we were out and a sub was brought in.
ravenice Nov 5th 2008 12:30PM
I work in the software industry, and I definitely see a lot of parallel between raiding/guild-management and business/people management. It makes a lot of sense, since both environments are innately artificial and both involves getting groups of disparate people to work together towards a common goal.
As far as raiding, it definitely depends on what the goal of the raid is. I would say that the very first thing is to establish upfront what the expectations are, both for the raid leader as well as for the raid. You would expect different degrees of performance from seasoned raiders (who regularly visit elitist jerks and bosskillers) versus casual players.
After expectations are clear, I think it's perfectly valid to politely and firmly let people know that they need to step up. As for feelings getting hurt, I take the position that everyone else in the raid is here under the assumption and hopes of clearing the boss or instance. For someone to under-perform, or feel indignant about being called out, is an insult to the other 9, 19, or 24 people in the raid who are giving it their best and are being held back. Taking constructive criticism is a much an important social skill as being able to give it.
Finally, I think it's important for the raid leader to get positive feedback as well, and sometimes regardless of whether the raid on-the-whole was successful. Was the problem lack of dps? Okay, acknowledge that and think of areas to improve, but also complement the tanks and healers who are holding aggro and keeping people alive.
Chamual Nov 4th 2008 7:15PM
Raid leading is a terrible job from the few times I have experienced it, but for progression raiding, you have to have a good if not great leader otherwise you will never get anywhere.
When you start hitting the harder bosses single mistakes do cause wipes and unless everyone in the raid is 100% honest and knows and learns from them, these mistakes do need to be called out.
As the blog states tho, there is a fine line between calling people on these mistakes and pissing people off so they don't want to raid, and this line is probably the one that seperates the great raid leaders from the merely good.
People will stick with the great leader through thick and thin, but will leave the good one over time.
Phoulmouth Nov 4th 2008 7:26PM
IMO call people out. If they get butthurt and leave the guild then you simply replace them with someone who can hopefully take criticism better.
My guild struggled in guild progression until we started cracking down on people and calling people out. Yeah we lost a few (surprisingly few) but our progression sped up quite a bit once we found replacements.
Fact is some people are cut out for raiding and some people aren't. People who can't take criticism are useless in guild raid progression and should just go PvP. Or you can keep them and not progress.
Good luck either way.
Dez Nov 4th 2008 7:40PM
While I personally would think a mix of stern and nice would do the trick, I've seen the strict raid leader in action and he did wonders. Said Raid leader took my old guild through all the content pre-BC, and he always knew what he was talking about, this was without a doubt a very smart person. While he would shout out "what, the, fuck is going on" and so on, he would very rarely aim it at one specific person, he didn't shout to harass, but more to get an idea of what was going on.
When you think about it, there's nothing wrong in that. That way he showed that he wouldn't go easy on bad raids, but he wouldn't harass anyone. He merely took everything smoothly, and when ppl couldn't do the same he questioned what was the problem, because he was smart and could easily see the solutions, while specific ppl might not have so easily.
I've never had as much fun in Wow as when raiding with this raid leader, so that says that strict can still be nice. Strict is needed for a ppl to follow a leader, that doesn't mean he can't be nice. Strict merely make things happen. Aa nice raid leader who doesn't care if the guild keeps wiping on the same boss won't get your guild anywhere.
Joe Nov 4th 2008 8:47PM
This is always a hard subject to generalize. 10 different raid leaders can try 10 different approaches and all will have different results.
However, following basic common sense never hurts.
1. Treat everyone with respect. We're all human.
2. It's game. Remember to have fun.
It's amazing how effective those two rules are and it's amazing how often they are ignored.
Don't be a jerk and remember to have fun and people will come back tomorrow.
Kazia Nov 4th 2008 9:04PM
"The study of MMORPG's isn't really part of mainstream a
academia (...yet), "
Just thought I would let you know: I work for one of Australia's leading Universities. We own our own island in 2nd life where much of it is used for research into comparissions between online and standard teaching methods and the use of a VR world as a teaching space.
Recently alot of new papers have come to the fore, especially in Business areas, that look at online gaming - especially MMO enviroments - as useful training tools, predominantly in areas like the armed forces, who currently already make heavy use of simulators for training means.
While this has little impact on WoW, the leadership and management skills being obtained in these enviroments is rapidly gaining credibility.
I remember a prior article on WoW Insider about putting Warcraft on your resume (the full version), and the interesting debate this fostered. I was for doing this simply because in the right industry it can create a personal link to previously unknown people and make you more memorable to you prespective employer. I did similar 10 years ago with my resume when I listed my achievement as a Queen Scout. Many people have been a scout so understood what it meant. Nowdays - training to be a Scout Leader (which I am) will also give you a Cert IV in Leadership. I see no reason why MMO games can't go down a similar path and reward/help a person achieve compententancy in minor awards.
Sky_Paladin Nov 4th 2008 10:37PM
I also work at the University you speak of.
Please drop me a line at paladin.skyATgmail.com if you are interested in catching up with some other WoW players at your campus.
Kaylad Nov 5th 2008 4:23AM
My son has just started the Duke of Edinburgh Award and has been told that playing WoW will contribute to the Skills section of the award.
Liz D Nov 5th 2008 9:44AM
There is substatial and growing body of academic research going on in WoW already. Anyone who isn't aware of Nick Yee's Daedalus Project (http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/) studying MMORGs, should be. He always needs players to respond to his continuing, very thought-provoking surveys. Science magazine published an article by William Bainbridge in July 2007 on the research potential of virtual worlds, WoW in particular (http://sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/317/5837/472). That led to formation of the Science guild, comprised of researchers, on Earthen Ring.
I just returned from American Library Association's Techsource Symposium on Games, Learning, and Libraries, where several presenters focused on WoW studies they were conducting, or used WoW as part of their work. Myself, I'm in the midst of a master's level study on the "21st Century Learning Skills" acquired in WoW that translate to real life: communication, creativity, collaborating (raiding, anyone?), leadership, and much more.
I've been a gamer my whole life as artist/writer/game developer (companies like EA and Interplay as well as countless tabletop game companies), and in WoW since shortly after launch. My interest isn't the white-coated professor saying "hmmm, what a bunch of weirdos" ... I'm gathering hard evidence to show the doubters and detractors the value of the game hobby and the particular game that you and I both love.
Tildy Nov 4th 2008 10:20PM
I thought this was interesting. I was once a 'hardcore raider' in vanilla WoW in Blades of Wrath. We had every server first from MC through a cleared Naxxramas months before BC was released.
With that preface out of the way, I'd say I agree that calling people out on their blunders and outright acts of stupidity is a potent and effective way to keep things moving in the right direction. If I keep seeing Bob the rogue hitting blade flurry on twin emps like a dumbass, aggroing a scarab, and then trucking it across the room on the switch with scarab in tow, I want to see somebody with authority and who is relatively protected -- like the raid leader or an officer -- call out Bob in raid chat and make sure it won't happen again.
A sense of friendly competition (for damage etc.), along with a bit of knowing fear regarding what will undoubtedly happen if you don't pay attention and do your job, will probably hasten progress and reduce overall frustration. Naturally, that kind of environment is not for everybody by any means, and if less-than-hardcore players comprise your guild's raiding roster, enacting this stuff could cause discontent and resentment towards the 'mean guys in charge'. The place for this environment is a guild whose members are there to progress through the game's content as a serious (while raiding, at least) and drama-free unit.
Mitawa Nov 4th 2008 10:45PM
Groupspeak- (noun) A dysfuntion in which group members value the harmony of the group more than new ideas, fail to critically examine ideas, hesitate to change flawed decisions, or lack willingness to allow new members to participate. Often leads to stagnation and the eventual disintegration of the group.
Sieler, William J and Melissa Beall. Communication: Making Connections. Boston: Allyn and Bacon, 2008.
Mitawa Nov 4th 2008 10:46PM
P.S.- I'm guilty of this myself, I just thought I'd point out that, technically, this is a bad thing. :)
ravenice Nov 5th 2008 12:43PM
I see a lot of that with hardcore raiding guilds. They start naturally coalescing into a core clique of people who raid/play together, and new members are often faced with "secondary" status and a steep climb until they "pay their dues" and are accepted by the core group. Very often, they will insist on doing things a certain way because "that's the way we've always done it in the past", or hold prejudices for/against certain ideas "you need X tanks and Y healers for this certain boss" or "you have to have a for this instance". It takes a very dynamic leader to realize this.
Cat Nov 4th 2008 11:20PM
People who can't maturely deliver hard but well deserved and constructively framed feedback aren't good raid leaders. If you can't, or won't, call out someone who is clearly doing something boneheaded, you're wasting 25 people's time.
People who can't maturely receive hard but well deserved and constructively framed feedback aren't good raid members. Whine, moan and argue with a raid leader who's protecting 25 people's time, and you go on /ignore.
As far as WoW at work, I don't think you'll see many management candidates putting it on their CVs, but RL management experience certainly helps you in WoW, and relationships are certainly built with clients and co-workers if you discover they play (once you've got the job!).
I discovered one of my major clients was a WoW player just by noticing that they used an emote in an email. We're now firm friends on the back of our shared interest and the business relationship is the better for it.
Eisengel Nov 4th 2008 11:35PM
I've been trained to lead 30 battle-ready soldiers into the maw of the enemy and achieve any objective assigned... but herding 5 or 10 or 25 guildies through an instance or raid... that's a role I don't think anyone can prepare for.
The best tactic I've found is to provide constant feedback and to be entirely clear and even-handed. If a warrior is charging too early, if a moonkin is spamming that knockback, if the mages are lagging on their sheeps... per fight I'll give feedback. This allows you to adjust things before they become a problem. People usually say 'ah.. okay' or 'yup, sorry... was being too aggressive' or 'sorry, wasn't paying attention'.
The entire time I've played WoW I've only kicked someone from my group once... but in any group I run it is an option. When I have the little king hat on I have to run the group as best I can... and if that means you need to take a hike, that's what will happen. I only consider kicking someone if they either resist instruction, or they can not improve, even if they seem to accept instructions. Most people that fall into the latter category offer to drop group. They recognize they're having trouble, that I want to do things they aren't up to, and offer to drop group so we can pick someone else up.
I take the tack of being direct but not being mean. I state things plainly. I'll advise someone in group chat once or twice... if I have to go beyond that I whisper them, and I'm a lot more direct. If I talk in party chat I'll say something like 'hey man, can you dial down that knockback a bit? '. If I have to whisper them I'd say something like; 'listen, you need to stop that knockback. I need these mobs in range. Take it off your hotbar if you need to, but I need that knockback to stop. Now.' If they still cause trouble... I'll get a little more plain... something like 'If you can't stop X, I'm going to have to drop you.' Next time... I don't say anything. They find themselves out of the group.
People know how I lead... they know when I'm in there I put my head down and get in the game, and if they aren't running their 'A' game at 100% they may find themselves getting ghetto-hearthed to Shattrath. That's why I usually don't lead groups. My guild is rather casual, and unless they're up against a real challenge I usually just run my character and will offer a suggestion or two up to the group leader.
Tildy Nov 10th 2008 3:43PM
You sound like a good leader, and remind me of my old raiding guild's leader.
Zarfay Nov 5th 2008 1:04AM
I don't have a problem admitting my mistakes... I have only raided a few times and yes I have made mistakes, however having my guild leader get angry at me for misclicking and looting the mob (I mean showing what comes up, not taking the loot) irritates me because they got more upset over that than standing within aoe range on certain mobs.