Heroics as a fresh 80: Don't be that guy
Back in the beginning of Burning Crusade, when heroic instances were originally introduced, you had to get to Revered standing with a dungeon's associated faction to buy a key that would let you into heroic mode. Later, that requirement was relaxed to Honored. This was taken one step further in Wrath of the Lich King, where there is, technically, no requirement to enter a heroic besides being level 80.
However, this doesn't mean you're ready for heroics (and Naxxramas-10, which is about the same difficulty) the moment you ding 80 and go train. This is something I found out on my own first 80, when I scratched and clawed my way through healing a heroic Old Kingdom in mid-70s dungeon and quest gear (we never did get the last boss down). I was told that I was rather undergeared for heroics, and to go do some normal-mode level 80 dungeons first (Halls of Lightning, Utgarde Pinnacle, Oculus, Culling of Stratholme).
This was some of the best advice I ever got in WoW. I ran each of the L80 normal-mode dungeons once, and my gear level improved by about 50% in the space of a day or two. There are some extremely serviceable quest rewards in all of these dungeons, not to mention drops and rep gains. There is also some excellent crafted gear out there, if you have some any spare change or mats kicking around. And from that moment on I wasn't that guy trying to tank heroics with 20,000 HP, or the DPS doing 1,000 in Naxxramas. Please, don't be that guy: run some normal-mode level 80s, and maybe pick up a bit of crafted gear or rep rewards, before you try to do heroics or raids.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 7)
Kat Jan 13th 2009 8:04PM
Agreed.
Warlock Jan 13th 2009 8:07PM
This is not necessarily true. Some heroics are very easy - Heroic Old Kingdom is not one of those :P
Plus, if others in the group are better geared, they can probably carry you through some of them (not all).
Graargh Jan 13th 2009 8:11PM
Yeah, no kidding. Way to start with one of the very hardest Heroics!
You can probably run Heroic UK, VH, Nexus, or maybe Azjol-Nerub with leveling gear. Halls of Lightning? Ahn'kahet: The Old Kingdom? NFW.
Cyanea Jan 13th 2009 8:25PM
Agreed.
My first heroic (ever) was UK, and I did it in normal blues and quest greens and did quite fine.
Lerophon Jan 13th 2009 9:29PM
Yes you can be carried through most of them, but the reality is that you shouldn't be carried through and just given gear. As a tank i'm tired of being 1st in dps while doing heroics, it takes forever, and makes it much less enjoyable.
The reason there is a healer shortage and to a lesser extent (on my server at least) a tank shortage is that 40% of the group has to do 90% of the work most of the time and its annoying. When I had collected a full ret set i respeced, saw that I only had 800 dps and didn't even dare go to a heroic even though i'd seen plenty of people doing it already.
ninjasuperspy Jan 13th 2009 10:02PM
OK is a particularly difficult heroic? Oh thank God, I was feeling horrible that we wiped a ton of times on the last boss last night. My poor Ret Paladin behind was on Cleanse duty during the add phase and I was having trouble managing moving away from the spikes, dps-ing the adds and cleansing the cloth DPS who'd be gibbed by one missed GCD.
Man, here I was feeling crappy all day.
dd Jan 13th 2009 10:55PM
You may think you did 'quite fine' but lets face the facts: You were carried.
As a tank that spent hours and hours perfecting my two gear sets, i have no patience for sh*t dps that expected to be carried through even the easiest heroics simply because 'its easy'.
Put out less dps than the tank by time first boss rolls around and you get the boot. This is my rule of thumb.
Eisengel Jan 13th 2009 11:00PM
The better the player and the more familiar the group, the more you can relax these restrictions. As a level 77 I rolled with an 80 tank and 3 others from my guild, none of them 80, and cleared the 1st boss in heroic Halls of Lightening. We begged off the rest of the instance since our DPS was so low the instance would have taken quite a while, but we probably could have taken the rest of it.
I currently only have about 1550 spellpower on my Spriest unbuffed, and come in 12th DPS on Loatheb when subbing into a Naxx-25 run. I don't have 1 Wrath epic yet, it was my first time ever in Naxx, but I nearly outperformed about half the raid (although to be fair probably only 1/3 to 1/4 of the DPS). I also pinch-healed while Shadow-specced through an accidental double pull in a Heroic Nexus when an inexperienced tank caught an extra keeper 4-pat and the healer and primary DPS went down.
Last night not including myself, 9 other guildies were on. As soon as the last of them broke 80, we made up 2 groups and hammered heroic Nexus simultaneously. While I agree that in general rolling 80 doesn't necessarily mean you can automatically do any 80 content, I wouldn't rule it out completely, especially if you can group with people you know and have a solid tank.
Cyanea Jan 13th 2009 11:20PM
I really don't feel like I was "carried". I came out second or third on the charts (don't remember exactly. It was a while ago.) I did pull my own weight.
Wakleon Jan 13th 2009 11:48PM
There is a big difference between dpsing a heroic and tanking a heroic. Right now dps seems to be class not gear dependent. I am sure this will change. The only classes that right now need gear upgrades are tanks and healers. I am not sure about healer gear but tanks need 535 defense and anywhere between 21-22k health for easy heroics with a decent healer. If you are doing a guild run with a well geared healer you can probably get by with less health. I started heroics about 2 hours of dinging 80. Mainly because I knew what rep rewards and drops I needed to get my health and defense where they needed to be. Seriously tanks, if you get a plan there will be no difficulty getting into heroics. The only drop I had a hard time on was the Seal of the Pantheon, on Normal Loken. Unfortunately for me I got the Seal and also got it's Naxx 10 upgrade the same day. Curse you HoL.
steve Jan 14th 2009 8:25AM
Whether you like the idea of being "carried" or not, I don't see a problem with people diving right in on heroics. As many posters in this thread have demonstrated, if you know how to play your class, you can make up for being undergeared. Because I play a healer and my guild was so short on them, I was healing Naxx 25 the same day I hit 80. Not because I'm a great player, rather just because they would prefer to bring a guildie and were happy to "carry" me while I was still getting geared up.
In turn, I recognize that most of the folks out there in your pugs will not be min/maxed or have ever heard of the Elitist Jerks site or have an optimal rotation. No worries -- I don't bother to look people up on the armory, since armory doesn't tell me anything about their skill level. And now that I'm outfitted head to toe in Naxx epics, I can do the carrying for low party dps or a tank that isn't def capped.
I actually enjoy healing bad pugs more than guildie groups, because if everyone is geared and knows what they are doing, there isn't a lot for the healer to do -- the tank is taking steady predictable damage and I occasionally need to throw out an AOE heal if the party takes damage from something. So go ahead and "be that guy", I'll still heal you as long as you aren't rude and are at least *trying*. Just be up front with the group about where you are at in gear level or dps when you join.
Brian Jan 14th 2009 10:05AM
Old Kingdom is pretty brutal on heroic. As a pally healer I also hate H HoL and H AN. For H HoL if I have a tank I know I explain to the dps that they need to do as much damage as they can before they die because they will die, and then the tank and I duo Loken down.
Graargh Jan 13th 2009 8:09PM
How about a post giving rule-of-thumb tanking, healing, and DPS requirements for the various levels of content?
I assume that any level 80 should be able to run normal-mode level 80 instances. What should we expect from players wanting to run Heroic 80s, 10-man Naxx, 25-man Naxx, or Malygos?
In my guild we've said "540 defense, >20K health" is a requirement for non-druid tanks, and a DPS of at least 1200-1300 for DPS classes. I don't know what Healers should be able to do, and it'd be nice to know.
Bob Dewane Jan 13th 2009 8:17PM
You mean there are people out there who try to tank Heroics without being at the 540 defense cap?!? No wonder people always blame the tanks....
If you are one such offending tank, from one tank to another...GET YOUR F'N D UP SO YOU DON'T GET CRITTED FOR ALL YOUR HP AND GIVE THE REST OF US A BAD NAME!!!
Roddy Jan 13th 2009 8:29PM
Strictly speaking, the defense cap for heroics is actually 535, since the bosses of heroics are level 72 elites, not lvl 73 elites like raid bosses.
Also, it is completely doable to tank heroics if you're a bit under the 535 cap so long as your other gear is reasonable. I'm not saying fresh 80's should jump right into heroics, just that focusing only on the tanks defense numbers is not the best way to determine their readiness for heroics.
Sillvar Jan 13th 2009 8:59PM
@ Bob Dewayne
Speaking as a tank currently gearing for Heroics/raiding, shut up until you know what you're talking about. It takes a long time to gear up and reach that defense cap, and get health above 20k.
DPS has a lot more slack because the success of the group doesn't depend so heavily on their gear. Because of this a LOT more DPS is inadequately geared. It's usually not the tanks.
Schadow Jan 13th 2009 9:41PM
The problem with new 80 tanks isn't so much the defense or the health as it is the avoidance.
A fresh 80 Paladin tank who does manage the 540 def rating probably has around 23k buffed HP, and around 20% dodge, 10% parry, and 10% block (before holy shield).
Technically he meets the requirements for heroic tanking (540 def, >20k health), but he'll still take too much damage to run without CC unless he has some serious heals in the group. He just doesn't avoid hits.
The problem is further compounded by a few things:
1: DPS that just dinged 80 and want to run heroics. There is gear for them to get before doing heroics, too.
2: DPS does AoE all the time, just because they can and it makes Recount look pretty. There is no thought to reducing the number of things eating the tank. A healer might be able to keep a wimp tank up for 10 seconds against 5 mobs, but if the first one isn't killed in those 10 seconds, the tank is screwed. Lrn2FocusFire.
3: The art of CC is a dead one. If you are a new tank, find a Shaman that knows how to Hex and use it on every group pull. That 5-pull just became a 4-pull even if your sucky DPS won't focus, and you still get to damage and build threat on the CCd mob.
Kazia Jan 13th 2009 9:45PM
Rule Of Thumb Guide (as requested - all numbers are unbuffed)
Heroics/10 Man Raids:
Tanks -
minimum: 540 Defence; 22K HP Min
Comfortable: 540 Defence; 25k HP
DPS -
min: 1.5k DPS
Comfortable: 1.8-2k DPS
Healers:
min: 1400 SP
Comfortable: 1600 SP
Tips:
1. Do every dungeon on normal before you do it on Heroic. This will introduce you to the pulls, pats, layout and boss mechanics. It will also upgrade you with some good gear, some of which is only obtainable in normal as well as complete quests for more gear and the all important gold.
2. Remember that heroics blues are item level 200. Heroics epics and 10 Man raid epics are also item level 200. This means there is very few stat points between them. It also means that depending on class and spec, a well itemized blue can often be better than a epic - do not judge by colour alone.
3. Plan your upgrade paths. Make sure you do the reputation for your appropriate head enchant early as well as do Sons of Hodir rep for your shoulder enchants - they make a huge difference.
4. Check out which heroics drop the gear you need and aim to do one of them a day plus the daily while gearing up.
5. If you use a mod like recount to track your DPS (for eg.) and you do a pug in which another person of the same class out does you, don't just wave it off saying "they have better gear". mods like recount give a breakdown of abilities used. Check out what rotations they have and their spec. Perhaps they know something you do not.
Finally if you want to start 25 Man and give it a good go (ie. Clear Naxx) aim to have:
Tank: 540 Def; 25-26k hp Unbuffed Min; 40% min total avoidance (ie dodge; dodge/parry)
DPS: 2.2-2.5k DPS min; 3k DPS prefered; 4k+ DPS on fights favouring your class (8k if its Thaddius ;)
Healers: 1.8-2k SP; 18-20k Mana (this will ensure appropriate INT levels)
Hope that helps
Willias Jan 13th 2009 10:13PM
Kazia, those numbers are a bit extreme.
For a tank, depending on heroic, 535 defense and 20k hp should be enough. I'm talking about Heroic Utgarde Keep or Nexus. Obviously you don't want to try and tank some of the tougher dungeons (Heroic Gundrak, Heroic Utgarde Pinnacle) without higher HP.
For a dps... ugh. Preferably, you want to put out AT LEAST 1200 dps. If you can't do at least 1k dps, start looking for upgrades on the auction house and start examining your spec and your damage rotations. A decent tank is going to be putting out 900 to 1k DPS easy. If you can't do that much, you're messing up horribly somewhere.
For a healer, I'm not sure on. Most seem to aim for 1200 to 1300 unbuffed, but depending on class, that's quite a bit of freakin' work. I'd say 1100 healing with about 14k mana would be a starting point, work up from there.
Avery Jan 13th 2009 10:19PM
@ Kazia
From everything I've read for tanks, the 540 def (duh!) and >20khp sounds pretty normal for heroics, but I have a question for Prot Pallies.
Do you have different rules for the HP max Prot Pallies for 25 man content? I ask this because I'm the /only/ prot pally in my very small guild and I'm still leveling up (I leveled a mage to 80 first). I've looked up some prot pallies from my old raiding guild and most of them seem to have about 25k health max with 50% avoidance(pre-HS) (Several are now up to 30k, 60% avoidance after running 25-Naxx).