Will Ulduar break your guild?
by Mike Schramm 
Apr 21st 2009 at 7:00PM
Dueg is the first blogger I've seen to suggest this, but I feel like it's an undercurrent that's been going around since the 3.1 release last week (and we'll probably find out more when Guildwatch comes out later tonight). He suggests that Ulduar might be, of all things, a guildbreaker. Now certainly it won't be nearly as much of a roadblock as Karazhan -- not only was that a tough instance, but it was also the first one we came across in Burning Crusade, and guilds who couldn't make it in Kara had no place to turn back to (at least guilds that can't make it in Ulduar can fall back on Naxx farming). But there's no question that Ulduar requires some excellent gear and some serious tactics, and if your guild has people raiding who are missing either one of those, you're going to be hitting your head on the wall quite a bit in there.That's not to say that it's super hard -- it's not, especially if you know not to stand in the fire and you've got the kind of gear on that lets you conquer the Heroic achievements. A lot of guilds have 25 of those people, and they're doing very well in Ulduar so far. But as Dueg says, Naxx is a casual instance, and Ulduar is not. In Naxx, you can get away with losing a few people, or having a few folks in greens along. In Ulduar, you can't.
It's not the apocalypse for guilds -- most guilds will go back to Naxx if they have trouble in Ulduar, grab a few more epics and tier pieces, and try again later. And some probably won't bother with Ulduar at all -- my casual guild is having fun just taking our time finishing Naxx wing by wing. But Ulduar seems to be where the rubber meets the road with casual raiding. If there's a guild out there who has a few lesser raiders carried along by a few high-level veterans, Ulduar's likely to cause some friction.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Tips, Guilds, Odds and ends, Instances, Raiding, Bosses
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 5)
Braundo Apr 21st 2009 7:07PM
A big part of it seems to be that a lot of people who had never raided before Naxx (and most semi-casual guilds have a few of these) got into the mindset that their lack of attention wasn't a big deal, since they were able to be carried through a full clear despite not contributing (or dying all the time). All of a sudden Ulduar comes along, and things aren't as easy-mode as they have been, and they wonder what's up.
This may be a big wake-up call to many.
Kolo Apr 21st 2009 7:12PM
Yeah agree with first poster. Most 10 man guilds could carry at least 5 slackers/no skill players and still complete naxx in 3-5 hours.
Uldy probably needs 10 players who don't mind wiping for an hour before downing a boss. It will seperate the weak from the dedicated.
Meethan Apr 21st 2009 7:24PM
One hour? Try 5. But yeh that's it. Ulduar will not BREAK us. It will slow us down sure but not BREAK us.
bod Apr 21st 2009 7:29PM
Think you're both too contemptuous of casual guilds, most of which are friendship based. They may struggle along for the first few bosses, but eventually, with time they'll get there. All in all good for the game all round if casual guilds improve their play.
May even be good for some people who's first introduction to raiding was nax to learn "what the fook to do".
-50 dkp anyone? Or time for more bitching and back biting?
Kolo Apr 21st 2009 7:32PM
If you really are in a family/social guild, you would never break up over something as petty as a raid. So of course this topic has nothing to do with those types of guilds. The number 3 guild on our realm broke up this week, and they'd been around 3 years. Obviously Ulduar wasn't the main reason, but I'm saying I've already seen some guilds break up since the patch.
Clevins Apr 21st 2009 9:20PM
"Most 10 man guilds could carry at least 5 slackers/no skill players and still complete naxx in 3-5 hours."
Um, no, not unless the others were incredibly well geared in close to BiS gear. That was, in fact, one of the things that made Naxx 10 harder that 25 - if you were geared at the level of the instance losing a couple of folks hurt more in 10.
Now, as everyone was geared in Naxx 10 gear that wasn't true anymore... but you can't really carry 5 people in Naxx 10 even if the rest of the raid was geared in Naxx-10 stuff.
Eisengel Apr 21st 2009 11:40PM
So... good raiders were torn from the thigh of Zeus, fully equipped, with all keybinds in place, all timings and rotations perfect to the nano-second and all stats min-maxed?
... or maybe this is where new raiders will learn how to be good raiders.
ziggler Apr 21st 2009 7:14PM
99% sure im gonna quit raiding... with all the boredom of naxx, many raiders quit, so im currently in a really well equiped 18 ppl raid group... dont like to be left out for the 10's, also feel kinda bad for the people who stay out when im in.
unless it gets better, bg's and arenas here I come
Kolo Apr 21st 2009 7:19PM
Too bad BG's are pretty much obsolete.
Welfare epics moved from BGs to Naxx in 3.0.2
I think Blizz should add them back to BGs, and we might not have to wait one hour for an AV battle.
*Misses 2 min wait for AV in TBC*
Kolo Apr 21st 2009 7:21PM
BTW I'm in full T7.5
My post wasn't really about welfare epics, just about being able to enjoy BGs. Hard to enjoy them now that hardly anyone does them...
Kanuris Apr 21st 2009 9:38PM
£10 says Kolo is an Alliance on Cyclone EU. Horde's outnumbered 20 vs 40 every friggin' match.
Para Apr 22nd 2009 4:02PM
To Kanuris - 40 v 20? you had over 15 people in an AV on cyclone :O whoa your lucky :P
I have just given up on it, its waste of time for us horde which is a shame because stormscale used to be known for its premades (why i rolled on that server) and now your lucky to find a premade ground that can even use the addon AV enabler.....
tonedeff Apr 21st 2009 7:15PM
Despite Ulduar being harder its still alot more fun then Naxx!
Charlie Apr 22nd 2009 12:41PM
This.
People will learn what raiding pre-wrath was about.
Oh, and LOL1hourperweek on Algalon. I think thats hillarious.
Jyotai Apr 21st 2009 7:20PM
The game right now is full of best-in-slot geared healers that got carried through content on the backs of others by guilds and PUGs desperate for anyone with something better than Linen Bandages.
A lot of these healers have overrated opinions of themselves and have talked their way into higher and higher progressed guilds where, in 25-mans, they can disappear to all but the most observant healing raid leader.
Those healers are what's going to cause a lot of guild breaking in Ulduar. With their inflated egos, they won't accept that the problem lies with their lack of skill. Guilds used to being able to let half their healers get carried by other half will be unable to tell why a seemingly great plan and great gear is no longer up to the task...
...and drama will ensue.
Kolo Apr 21st 2009 7:24PM
I wouldnt say its a healer only problem. You could be a crappy tank and dps and get away with it.
I'll be honest and say after a month or two off Naxx, all I bothered to do on trash was Fan of Knives (especially in Arachnid). The problem is some people will continue this in Ulduar and fail hard.
Jyotai Apr 21st 2009 7:33PM
You can't be a bad tank and get away with it. You can't even be a mediocre tank and get away with it.
It is very obvious when a tank performs badly. groups wipe very quickly.
It is very obvious when a DPS performs poorly in one regard - almost everyone runs a DPS meter these days, and you get called out very fast. If on the other hand, you mistarget, and pull aggro, groups will often wrongly blame the tank, but often it becomes after it is specifically you pulling aggro repeatedly (whereas with a bad tank, who pulls is more random, or usually the healer).
Healers though can easily hide. People rarely watch healing meters, and even when they do even less commonly understand them. Healers can easily perform poorly, fail to learn mobility, fail to learn targeting, fail to manage mana, and fail to even understand staying in range or in LoS of their assigned targets - and never be noticed for any of it.
Its even common for very bad healers to get told 'good healing' at the end, simply because people got through despite the healer.
Blame for such mistakes is usually cast on the tank or the DPS, called a fluke, or covered by a second healer who does the job of two, or one and a half, or otherwise steps up to the plate.
Most people simply do now know what signs to look for. And of course bad healers themselves often do not, or they might not be so bad. Its only when you get a good healer in charge of a raid's healing that you can start spotting it. Or when someone else on the team is a former top-notch healer and knows what to look for.
Kolo Apr 21st 2009 7:37PM
Usually true, but your underestimating how easy Naxx was after you knew the strategy.
Other than a few bosses, a below average tank could get through Naxx. And sure DPS is easier to measure, but I could most likely clear a Naxx pug with most of them only doing 1.5k dps. These people were tolerated in WoW 3.0 because if you clear bosses and get loot, no one really cares about performance.
Firestride Apr 21st 2009 7:44PM
You guys are right, and I'm one of those healers (except for the inflated opinion of myself). I never raided before Naxx, and I'm just not really a good enough player to feel like I'm really helping my guild in progression content. But of course, healers are hard to find, so they always bring me along. Fortunately I'm a Druid, so mana isn't an issue, and every now and then spamming Regrowth on anyone who takes damage will put me on top of the charts, but I feel completely incapable of making the difference between a wipe and a kill.
Even I can stay out of the fire, though.
Kolo Apr 21st 2009 7:47PM
Fire, just by admitting it, you automatically move one stage beyond those players. You'll get better in time, and if you and you're guild are happy with this, no problem.