After someone
asks a question on the forums about
the new Mage Tier 10 bonus and the numbers behind it, Ghostcrawler
brings up a little interesting insight into the way Blizzard puts these abilities and attributes together. He says that there are two steps to implementing a new ability: mechanics first, and then numbers later. That may seem common sense (and to a certain extent, it definitely is), but it's interesting to note that it's always what the ability does first, and then numbers later. Blizzard is much less likely (relatively speaking of course, and there are plenty of exceptions to this rule) to put a new ability into the game than just tweak current numbers.
It makes sense, and if there's
a new ability you've been waiting to see in the game, maybe the reason Blizzard hasn't tackled it yet is that they're working on tweaking numbers to try and fix it without starting up a new mechanic. Ghostcrawler also says that this is the PTR we're dealing with, and so of course those Tier 10 bonuses aren't set in stone yet, just like everything else being tested. They don't call it the P
TR for nothing.
Tags: abilities, blizzard, current-numbers, development, forums, ghostcrawler, insights, mage, numbers, patch-3.3-ptr, ptr, tier-10, tier-10-bonuses, tweaking
Filed under: Mage, Tips, Odds and ends, Blizzard, Expansions
Oct 10th 2009 at 6:00PM 
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
WoWie Zowie Oct 10th 2009 6:27PM
ya i'm not thrilled in the least about the 2 set bonus.
my mirror image is situational, and although 3 min might not seem like a long cooldown, it still equates to like once or maybe twice a fight. so for the most part we only benefit from 2 set bonus for all of 30 seconds per fight. and that's assuming you have enough time in that window to maximize potential: standing still and spamming nuke.
um.. whoopity doo?
WoWie Zowie Oct 10th 2009 6:29PM
edit: i said we benefit for 30 sec when it actually only lasts 10 sec....
mark Oct 30th 2009 2:01PM
personally i use this at the start of every boss fight
scorch - MI (with 30s threat prot) - blow all cooldowns - BURN - invis
a nice dps boost on your burst
4 set...
hot streak/brain freeze - instant cast for "an use" means you miss 1.5 sec - 1.5 sec = 1 spell max for +12% haste
Missile Barrage - 2.5 sec minus haste = bonus gone b4 use
pathetic tbh
Blacksabre Oct 10th 2009 6:41PM
The mage Tier 10 bonuses need to be questioned. They're fairly useless. Blizz may change them, if that proves to be the case, but as little interest as the devs have in mages in general, and frost mages, in particular ("But...but...FROST mages are the PvP mages!" Right.) I'm not betting on it. Mage love is right up there with teenagers being sent to boot camps to learn self-discipline.
Yup, I'm QQing...but what was the last time, honestly, you saw a mage consistently matching high DPS in a raid...which, face it, is the only reason a mage is there? (Pause for 500 posts stating "Oh, *I* saw..."). Hunters. DKs and such shouldn't top the DPS lists, because they have other skills which are useful. All mages can do is kill stuff, and without Tier 99 gear, we simply don't do it very well. As far as PvP, mages became useless when melee classes (warriors, DKs, paladins, bears) started carrying 40-50,000 health. We take a dozen spells to kill them...they kill us in two or three swings...and that assumes we can cast at all. And spare me evasion...if they can get us to move, they win, anyway.
Matthew Rossi Oct 10th 2009 6:50PM
"Hunters. DKs and such shouldn't top the DPS lists, because they have other skills which are useful."
Blame the 'pure DPS' mentality for Hunters beating you: they're considered a DPS class just as much as you are and have every bit as much right in the current system to top the meters as you, rogues and warlocks do. Spellsteal, Ice Block (we use it heavily on heroic Val'kyr Twins), polymorph, counterspell all count as other skills that are useful and are often used. Try doing Heroic Faction Champs without them.
Mages provide plenty of utility, just like hunters do. Hunters get to be as good as you are at ranged DPS because, just like you, they're considered to be pure DPS. Worse, they're the only ranged DPS class whose damage is mitigated by armor.
Blacksabre Oct 10th 2009 7:27PM
Spellsteal, polymorph, counterspell...none of which work in most raid environments. All bosses and most raid trash are immune to all of those spells. Further, all freeze slowing effects are useless as well, due to mob immunity.
So, we don't HAVE those spells, and Ice Block might give us a few seconds of immunity, but unlike a paladin bubble, we can't DO anything when we use it...can't cast, can't move, can't heal...so sure, we can cast it, but so what?
I'll give you that hunters might be worth a point, but I notice you didn't comment on the others, and your comments about mages were without merit.
Laelestia Oct 10th 2009 7:35PM
When was the last time I honestly saw a mage top meters? Try this friday when my guild downed Algalon, or many a time before in ToC hard modes. Mage dps is solid as can be, I know because I play one.
As far as the tier 10 bonuses go, they're actually extremely nice, particularly for arcane. Keep in mind that they have been updated since the wow.com article listed them, they're now:
2 piece: Your Hot Streak, Missile Barrage, and Brain Freeze talents also grant you 12% haste for 5 seconds when the effect of the talent is consumed.
4 piece: Your Mirror Image ability also causes you to deal 18% additional damage for 30 seconds.
Both bonuses are interesting, while also being quite powerful
krizzlybear Oct 10th 2009 7:35PM
Fire, Frostfire and Arcane are fine. They're just as high up there as hunters, according to the simulations run with 3.2.x BiS gear. Frost Mages indeed could use a DPS boost, as those same simulations list them about 20% below the other two trees. The only reason why the Devs are hesitant about buffing frost damage is that they're scared of the PvP rammifications behind any improvements that they think up.
That being said, the main problem with the Tier bonus for Frost Mages is that Frost PvE specs do not put points into brain freeze, since the damage (namely lack thereof) provided by the free fireball is often not worth the global cooldown at higher gear levels. This problem was evident with the T8 bonus, and seems to be the case with the T10.
Matthew Rossi Oct 10th 2009 7:43PM
How useful is any hunter trap in a raid? How often do you use any hunter ability besides misdirect? We use every ability I listed when we're doing hard modes. We're not dropping traps. I don't play either a hunter or a mage, I could give a rats ass about either class. You're just plain misinformed about how mages are used in raids. Maybe you're too unwilling to take the personal DPS hit to help your guild, maybe you don't raid hard modes, maybe you just don't care. But guilds doing these fights use every utility ability they have. Heroic Jaraxxus we have mages spellstealing Nether Power. Heroic Faction Champs without a mage using poly, blink, ice block? Please. Heroic Val'kyr without a mage who can absorb the orbs and ice block through the vortex?
If you're going to lament hunter abilities (which are what, an aggro pass, some traps that almost never get used, disengage?) and argue that your DPS should be better as a result, then start looking at mage abilities and how they're used in fights.
Blacksabre Oct 10th 2009 7:59PM
Matthew, you said:
"I don't play either a hunter or a mage, I could give a rats ass about either class. You're just plain misinformed about how mages are used in raids. Maybe you're too unwilling to take the personal DPS hit to help your guild, maybe you don't raid hard modes, maybe you just don't care. But guilds doing these fights use every utility ability they have. Heroic Jaraxxus we have mages spellstealing Nether Power. Heroic Faction Champs without a mage using poly, blink, ice block? Please. Heroic Val'kyr without a mage who can absorb the orbs and ice block through the vortex? "
I generally try to avoid criticizing people who post here. In this case, I'm going to make an exception.
You are a member of the Wow.com staff. As such, it's your responsibility to consider everyone's coimments, and allow differences of opinion...EVEN your opinions...in the interests of representing Wow.com as a staff member. You turned this thread into a personal attack on me, filled with insults, because I posted my opinion. Thus, my opinion is that you are a sorry, sad, short tempered excuse for a staff member, and Wow.com should be ashamed to employ you.
Nick S Oct 10th 2009 8:48PM
I just disagree with the premise of this whole comment thread... Mages DO put out good numbers. Why are people crying about Mage DPS?
Griffe Oct 10th 2009 11:12PM
I love people who post something in comments, then, later on, try to make it seem like they said something else, as if we can't scroll up and look for ourselves.
Ahhhh, the internet: Allowing assholes to put their foot's in their mouths since....um....damn... WIKIPEDIA! You have forsaken me!
matthewggrammer Oct 11th 2009 12:40AM
It's not an "opinion", Blacksabre. You were just plain wrong.
And this isn't Worldofwarcraft.com, it's wow.com. You're not paying them for anything.
When you get owned on a public forum (and you got owned, because you were wrong), don't whine and cry about how the bully beat you up in his own house. No one wants to hear it. I'd much rather visit a site when the posters will tell the whiny masses what up.
Get lost.
Matthew Rossi Oct 11th 2009 1:23AM
Calling you misinformed, believe it or not, is not an attack on you. It's a simple statement of fact. You told me, directly, person to person, that the abilities I listed don't count as useful abilities. You were wrong. I don't know why you consider abilities that are often used on bosses as unimportant, and the three I listed are just some of the reasons why you could be wrong. It's not just a matter of opinion when you say "Hunters should do less DPS than mages because of their useful abilities" and ignore your own useful abilities in the process. It's disingenuous. It's one step removed from lying.
If you feel attacked, it's because you have no actual counter for my statements. I listed specific examples where specific mage abilities are crucial to the success of a cutting edge boss encounter. Like it or hate it, mages are in demand in Trial of the Grand Crusader for reasons entirely outside of their DPS. I didn't even mention Remove Curse, another awesome utility ability mages have.
This is outside of the fact that mage DPS is doing fine, by the way.
As for my representing wow.com, it's true that I work here. If you can find one single solitary place where I used an insult aside from pointing out your factual inaccuracies (which is not an insult) then I will apologize.
Sinthar Oct 12th 2009 8:06AM
As a longstanding mage, id like to point out - mages DPS is FINE. Also that Spellsteal, Counterspell and polymorph work fine in most raids, just watch the sheep as with the AOE/dots nowadays it lasts almost as long as lightbulb wired to the national grid main line, and spellsteal gets some nice buffs, or sometimes just counters a nasty melee buff they have.Whilst i dont think its quite as good as it used to be, its competitive with equivalent gear and skill to most. As a regular i can confirm most of Matt R's comments are both accurate and truthful (although i think hes missed some hunter talents which are useful (like tranq - which has its uses too for example), that is neither here nor there for this argument). Mages HAVE a decent ammount of ulility, and good dps. Although personally i would have (if i wanted to raise some sort of arguement for raising mage dps) gone for the glass cannon wearing cloth vs mail, but tbh even thats a bit silly nowadays imo - we both still get one hit by most bosses, so the slight armour bonus is negligable imo.
Just to spring the conversation out a little - i will say it does seem the 'pure dps' argument is a bit wild atm, in my guild feral druids (a HYBRID) are out dps'ing most pure dpsers by a decent margin. Ill let others argue the numbers about talents/gear/spec/skill etc out or just dismiss it as a isolated example.
@Laelestia - did you switch the 2pc and 4pc benefits - it doesnt seem to match the previous article on T10 bonuses - or have they changed and i missed it? Esp as the write up ive seen puts the damage bonus as 15% not 18%.
Anyhow personally i dont like the T10 - i like to use my MI as an aggro dump for spike moments. Using MI at the start is just people trying to top the dps meters - waiting til the tank has good aggro is much better imo unless your going for speed kills, but that is exactly what will happen most times with this T10 set bonus. Tying it to a dps increase is a little backwards to my style, as it pretty much ensures i HAVE to invis near the end of duration (if i was gonna pull without the bonus, im guarenteed to pull with it). Whereas atm you can pop MI, let the tank regain the aggro and continue. With this bonus it reduces the options to use imo, and makes mages more boring to play.
The 4 pce bonus is even worse. 3 secs of 12% haste. Arcane will never see the benefit as their triggering spell takes longer than 3 sec to cast, so they can watch it run out, long before they can use it, Frost is PVP spec and wont use it, so its only of any use for fire and ffb. But with the spell casting times that can effect a MAXIMUM of 2 spells. This is assuming that the you have a good ammount of haste anyhow, as to get two spells out you have :-
1) GCD of the triggering spell/channelling time
2) Casting time of new spell
With haste reducing the GCD. i still think its unlightly you will get the 2nd spell off with 12% haste unless you have a massive amount already which means it unlightly you will get the effect (from 2 crits in a row) as you will have nurfed crit to get that much haste. So my thoughts are its completely NAFF as a bonus - esp a 4 pce one! When you compare that to the 'sometimes not consumed Tbonus' which can proc multiple times in a row, and gives you a 'free' (ie just GCD) pyroblast, saving 75%+ time off casting (even if you compare it to fireball its still a 50%+ haste bonus)
Overall i find the T10 bonuses completely underwhelming, and poorly thought out.
I would GREATLY prefer some of the previous Wrath T bonuses - more mana and sp power for using a gem - best 2 pce imo (in effect it does more damage, and gives you mana, and doesnt require you to use one of the mages only two 'Oh Sh1t' buttons), followed by the not using the insta Pyroblast (you can tell im a fire mage cant you :) ) as the T4 bonus, would suit me FAR FAR better,and is more fun to play than the boring - 'when it procs your next spell with be slightly faster'.
Maybe thats the real answer. Allow all T10 stuff to give a bonus from the previous t gear, selectable when you chose the set 1st (and if you wanna change, you have to get the complete gear again to stop ppl changing continually) for all classes ofc. Would stop a lot of whinging tbh (mine included!)
Anyhow wall of text over. Thanks for your attention. And please dont class all of ANY class based on forums. (ie please dont just dismiss things as 'mage qq' or 'hunter qq', they may well be right, or wrong, but you wont know unless you give them a hearing, THEN you can dismiss them or agree as you see fit)
shak33l Oct 10th 2009 7:41PM
Mages can't drop melee with 40k+ health? are you kidding? l2 play the class zzz. Constant CC to the point you can render them useless while hitting them with constant crits. please learn to play your class before you comment
bushkanaka86 Oct 10th 2009 7:54PM
I know this is slightly off topic since it has nothing to do with Mages but you said "if there is an ability you would like to see in the game.."
Well, there is 1 ability I have always been curious about. If you watch the intro movie to the burning crusade, it shows many different abilities. A paladin using a seal, a mage throwing a fireball as well as polymorphing, a warlock using hellfire, a priest rezzing.
And then, it shows a priest slam their staff into the ground and cause like a shockwave through the ground throwing rocks up into the air. What ability is that? Every other thing that happens in that movie is a real ability in the game and then all of a sudden a priest throws down this powerful move that doesn't seem to exist. I want priests to get that.
Azhariel Oct 10th 2009 8:34PM
I believe that's a simple Holy Nova. ): Wish it was that awesome in game.. Again I'm not 100% sure, but it's the closest match I can think of.
Tom Oct 10th 2009 8:37PM
I assumed it was Holy Nova, but a FAR more epic Holy Nova than I can manage!
Muse Oct 11th 2009 3:00AM
Huh, good point, never thought of that. If we assume that was a priest, that's one hell of a souped up Holy Nova.
...I WANT THIS IN GAME